Are bootloaders and programmed atmel chips legal to own in US?

[Liquidss]

I have a short question. Are bootloaders and programmed atmel chips legal to own in US and if so what are the legitimate uses for it?

[seymour_teevee]

I have a short question, too: do you want to bet the farm on it?

[morgana]

You have the right idea about asking the question, only this is not where you will get the right answers. You need to consult a lawyer, and ask his opinion. I personally think that you would end up losing the case if brought to trial, but I am not a lawyer, Judge or jury. The main argument will be can they prove intent? I am not so sure they will need to be 100% if it is civil action. If it is for criminal action, I would have to know all the events that lead up to the arrest. People here tend to forget that to charge people criminally there most likely was some undercover work done and the results of this probably leave intent in very little doubt.

If this is just hypothetical, then you would need to say how they would have got the info that lead to you, and did you say anything to them about its use..... and so on. That is why a lawyer is your best place to look. He will have many more questions as well, about things I probably never even thought about.

[Zappa Crappa]

Why does everything have to have a "legitimate use" or even a "practicle use"?

I have purchased items that I've used once or twice, and it didn't "do"what I thought it would (or I did not know how to operate) but though I did.

There are some people that "collect stuff" just for the sake of collecting. i.e. cars, teacups, beanie babies, hockey cards

Some people buy stuff and disassemble to find out what makes it tick.

Lots of people collect anything electronic. Especially guys. If you have a collection of "electronic stuff" it might be a "pack rat defence" (collector)

[[]DE[]DSI]

Well, it all boils down to that green paper thing called money.
Lawyers will spend their lifes to find a way around anything to get that green back. This applies to most everyone, not just lawyers.

Our world is so currupted by money that we as people would rather lose our rights to anything to have money and spend the rest of our sorry lives unable to listen, watch, eat, drive, speak, ect ect what we want, but be controlled by the corporate devils and government then stand up for something that is a trillion times more important then money, and that is our rights and freedom.

Tell me, what good is money if you can't go and buy your favorite CD because if you play it in a computer at your friends house you could goto jail till your 135 years old or be find hundreds of thousands of dollars. $hit you can't even watch a damn DVD at your friends house. read the FBI warning bull$hit. "Not for public viewing without propper licensing" or something to that effect. So if your watching TV and your curtains are open you could be find because some kid across the street can see it too.

Soon if people don't start standing up for their rights we won't have any at all. And it all goes back to that green piece of paper called money. Lawyers are a bad thing in many ways because they find ways to destroy our rights and lives so that they can get paid. And this is their job. how can they sleep at night?
And the justice system is gone to $hit. You can kill someone, plead temporay insanity and get out in a few years, if your a good boy you might get out sooner. But break into some web site with piss poor security and put "Your momma" on the front page and you'll goto jail for 2 terms of life. hmmmmm

::sigh::

pretty sad...

ok... I've vented now.

[seymour_teevee]

Originally posted by Zappa Crappa
Why does everything have to have a "legitimate use" or even a "practicle use"? ... (collector)

Interesting argument, but . . .

If I, purely as a collector, was found to be in possession of a lock pick set, or a klystron tube (used nominally to trigger nuclear bomb detonations, as well as used in photocopiers), I'd probably be in violation of half a dozen local, state, and federal statutes.

DirecTV's ace-in-the-hole is to utilize the civil, not criminal, court system. "Proving" intent, not exclusivity, merely consists of presenting compelling evidence, not the more rigorous "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt". If it's a jury trial, convicting only requires that the jury deliver a verdict based on a simple majority poll, not a unanimous verdict as is required in a criminal case. A civil punitive and damage award case can be as much or more a burden as a criminal jail sentence. At least a jail sentence carries the unspoken provision of "board and room" as well as medical care (and the prospects of the horizon-broadening experience of intimately close bonding extracurricular activities) for the detainee.

[oldschoolwizard2000]

I'm not a lawyer but --- owning a Bootloader shouldn't be illegal because the device itself doesn't contain any

a. DTV Code
b. does not allow you steal/decode any signal

the bootloader applies a "shock" after a certain amount of time from boot up

as for owning an ATMEL chip w/ say HU s/w, yeah that might be illegal but again this devices DOESN'T DECODE the signal


as for a modified H/HU card - yes thats illegal

[morgana]

Unfortunately the law states taking part or the assititng of the manufacture or possession of related devices to recieve satellite signals. So even to assist you in finding any device is also against the law. To aid you in any way shape or form in the stealling of satellite signals will also get you nailed.

As far as collecting goes if possession of radar detectors is illegal in your state, can you say but I only have it as a collector? If a device is illegal, you are not allowed to collect it. But officer "that crack was of vintage runs and I was only keeping it as part of my finer runs collection". Do you think I would have a chance. If you are in the USA and you have any satellite related equipment or cards, that have to do with piracy, and you get caught with them, you are in big trouble. If they can prove you manufactured and sold them, you are as done as black toast.

This is not like speeding or jaywalking. Coviction of any of these offences will get you large fines and /or jail time. The criminal record will keep you from getting bonded, and you may well lose your property.

Only lawyers can tell you, just what you should expect. They will know more about just at what level DTV considers you a threat and how hard they will push. If you were TTRK and you were caught in the USA with satellite devices, I would imagine they would try for the death penalty if they could get that on the books. It all depends on who you are, how active you have been in the industry etc.. Just be sure you know what you are doing before you get caught doing it.

[Zappa Crappa]

Final joint version of H_R_ 2281, DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act), Oct_ 20, 1998.htm

Sec. 1203. Civil remedies
`(a) CIVIL ACTIONS- Any person injured by a violation of section 1201 or 1202 may bring a civil action in an appropriate United States district court for such violation.
`(b) POWERS OF THE COURT- In an action brought under subsection (a), the court--
`(1) may grant temporary and permanent injunctions on such terms as it deems reasonable to prevent or restrain a violation, but in no event shall impose a prior restraint on free speech or the press protected under the 1st amendment to the Constitution;
`(2) at any time while an action is pending, may order the impounding, on such terms as it deems reasonable, of any device or product that is in the custody or control of the alleged violator and that the court has reasonable cause to believe was involved in a violation;
`(3) may award damages under subsection (c);
`(4) in its discretion may allow the recovery of costs by or against any party other than the United States or an officer thereof;
`(5) in its discretion may award reasonable attorney's fees to the prevailing party; and
`(6) may, as part of a final judgment or decree finding a violation, order the remedial modification or the destruction of any device or product involved in the violation that is in the custody or control of the violator or has been impounded under paragraph (2).
`(c) AWARD OF DAMAGES-
`(1) IN GENERAL- Except as otherwise provided in this title, a person committing a violation of section 1201 or 1202 is liable for either--
`(A) the actual damages and any additional profits of the violator, as provided in paragraph (2), or
`(B) statutory damages, as provided in paragraph (3).
`(2) ACTUAL DAMAGES- The court shall award to the complaining party the actual damages suffered by the party as a result of the violation, and any profits of the violator that are attributable to the violation and are not taken into account in computing the actual damages, if the complaining party elects such damages at any time before final judgment is entered.
`(3) STATUTORY DAMAGES- (A) At any time before final judgment is entered, a complaining party may elect to recover an award of statutory damages for each violation of section 1201 in the sum of not less than $200 or more than $2,500 per act of circumvention, device, product, component, offer, or performance of service, as the court considers just.
`(B) At any time before final judgment is entered, a complaining party may elect to recover an award of statutory damages for each violation of section 1202 in the sum of not less than $2,500 or more than $25,000.
`(4) REPEATED VIOLATIONS- In any case in which the injured party sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that a person has violated section 1201 or 1202 within 3 years after a final judgment was entered against the person for another such violation, the court may increase the award of damages up to triple the amount that would otherwise be awarded, as the court considers just.
`(5) Innocent violations-
`(A) IN GENERAL- The court in its discretion may reduce or remit the total award of damages in any case in which the violator sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that the violator was not aware and had no reason to believe that its acts constituted a violation.
`(B) NONPROFIT LIBRARY, ARCHIVES, OR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS- In the case of a nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution, the court shall remit damages in any case in which the library, archives, or educational institution sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that the library, archives, or educational institution was not aware and had no reason to believe that its acts constituted a violation.
`Sec. 1204. Criminal offenses and penalties
`(a) IN GENERAL- Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain--
`(1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both, for the first offense; and
`(2) shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, for any subsequent offense.

[BubbaHill]

Programed Chip's may be illegal. Blank one's, I don't think so. Do a search for Atmel Chip 90S8515, I think you will find many uses for them. Bootloaders, or Boot Board, are now called Smartcard Cycler's. This web site is a trip. Must see! http://www.digitalsmartcard.net

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Folks,

I think it is important for people to know that this site is located in Canada. In Canada it is NOT illegal to own a DirecTV® Smart card, one that is Programmed to receive the DirecTV® signal, a programmer, a boot loader and Atmel Chip to go on a glitcher and all of these things. Legality or ILLEGALITY is dependant on where you are and the USAGE you make of something usually. There are some 50 countries where these things are NOT illegal either.

Some of these and in fact all of them if intended to be used to STEAL DirecTV® signal are illegal to USE in the USA.

But you can legally buy an Access Card programmer in the USA so LONG as you do not use it illegally there. For instance you could legally use a programmer there to program a smart card for information, security or other purpose by for example using this software:

http://www.microsoft.com/HWDEV/TECH/input/smartcard/default.asp

And then take this same programmer with you to Costa Rica on vacation to use to program a DirecTV® smart card with Freeware you obtain there over the Internet. But do NOT use that or an Atmel on a Unlooper (that can also be used as an ISO-7816 programmer) within the USA to STEAL DTV's signal.

DirecTV® has never understood this about the law in Canada (or has tried to claim they did not) and always assumed that these products were illegal in Canada, but according to our COURTS they are NOT. That can clearly be seen on many rulings on the http://www.legal rights.org web site such as this APPEALS case whose judge was quite clear:

http://www.legal-rights.org/rulings/rvgregorysup.html

You can buy one of these things mentioned above, but you CANNOT use them illegally anywhere. If you found an illegal use for a product in Canada or in any county then you CANNOT own it there to use illegally.

If you are using it for LEGAL purpose then you are OK. That is something that may need to be determined by a court. The law is NOT always clear on what is legal and what is illegal and sometimes its necessary to go to a court for a ruling on that.

But it's VERY CLEAR that even legal products such as a hammer can be used ILLEGALLY and it is always illegal to use them illegally.

Some things may be LEGAL for some people to possess (such as a licensed handgun) and yet ILLEGAL for others to possess if they are not licensed and this in the SAME location.

So this is NOT a black or white thing and it usually is dependant on the USE that the person who owns or possesses the "thing" puts it to or the conditions under which they possess it and what the law says about it.

For instance, I do NOT KNOW this to be a fact but its my personal opinion (not given to anyone else) that using a DirecTV® smart card for security on your computer for example, may NOT be illegal but to program that same device to steal TV in the USA would certainly be illegal.

If a person does NOT sell devices and does not possess a satellite system then I cannot see how proof could be made that a programmer is illegal even in the USA. A person who buys a Unlooper and programs the Atmel with a flash to allow it to be used as a programmer and uses that to develop a smart card to contain medical information is hardly using the device illegally.

So people reading this post can readily see that the answer to this type of question is "IT DEPENDS." And what it depends on is the intended usage, the PLACE of usage or LOCATION and many other factors.

I am no expert but I understand that laws that are not FEDERAL in the USA or Canada can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. For instance a Radar Detector may be illegal in one place but NOT illegal in another. So the difficulty of answering a question such as "is a Radar Detector legal" is very difficult and also depends on jurisdiction and intended use.

An example would be that if it is illegal to use a radar detector in Manitoba but legal in the rest of Canada (hypothetically) then a person driving across Canada would be wise to stop at the Manitoba border and place his radar detector in his trunk. Then if he was stopped he could show that it was not being USED in Manitoba but rather only in legal provinces. If its illegal to POSSESS in Manitoba what should that person do. Turn around and drive 2000 miles back to his home and leave it there. No I don't think so but any intelligent person could see that it was NOT intended to be used in Manitoba and if accused of possessing it in Manitoba the person would have to place himself at the mercy of the court. Because it was in the trunk I think (personally not giving legal opinion) that the judge would be sympathetic to the argument but if it was in the car he may well NOT be so sympathetic.

These things are sometimes confusing but its is VERY CLEAR that persons in ANY civilized country CANNOT act against the law knowingly or even by accident.

But over all nobody can expect someone to walk into their home and accuse them of using an unlooper illegally. Even if they purchased one and DirecTV® got their hands on that invoice that does NOT constitute proof of illegal use. Usually this accusation will come by an investigation of something and when it DOES NOT (for example when DirecTV® send an intimidation letter) then the conditions will have a bearing on this. If for example the buyer does NOT have a satellite system and does not sell programmed DirecTV® cards, then it is unlikely that a court will find against them and for DirecTV®. But if they DO HAVE a system and DO NOT have a subscription then things may be different.

So asking a simple question without background information renders the question rather irrelevant and unanswerable. WHERE, HOW , WHY and WHEN are all important parts of the issue.

But BEAR this in mind. YOU are responsible for what YOU do with any product and using ANYTHING (even a simple hammer) ILLEGALLY in your jurisdiction is simly ILLEGAL and you cannot defend against PUTTING something to illegal use in your jurisdiction.

You may be allowed to say the "President of Cuba is acting like an A S S H O L E (if he is) in the USA or Canada but I would hesitate to do that when in CUBAhttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif
A Happy, Healthy and Prosperous NEW YEAR to ALL!
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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!

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