HU- Stuff

[BubbaHill]

Can anyone tell me why HU- Stuff changed their name to Digital- SmartCard? Was this a new legal issue, and they just got smarter?

[gunsmoke2]

Changing a name and still carrying out the same buisness is not a smart legal move as it doesn't change anything.


Don't know why the change of name.


GS2

[GhostDog]

gunsmoke is right, they are still selling the same products... I've been bashed on just about every forum for warning people about buying from US dealers... now these same people that bashed me are getting threatening letters from DTV cause they didnt heed my advice... this just proves that every dog has its day.

Dime

[RiseStar]

Dimedealer, its important to also remember that its just as illegal for Canadian dealers to sell into the U.S. as it is for U.S. dealers to sell products.

So far, DTV has kept their belly full on U.S. dealers as they are plentiful and easier to access, however as the pickins start getting slimmer as they are beginning to now, they WILL be targeting Canadian dealers who knowingly import illegal products (or who attempt to) and we will find our trusty RCMP will be only too happy to fully cooperate and hand suspected dealers over to DTV for criminal and civil remedy.

Certainly it is a time for all people including dealers to carefully rethink their strategy and take steps or make changes to protect themselves and their customers accordingly as they have widely used dealers customer lists for further actions against end users.

[GhostDog]

Originally posted by RiseStar
Dimedealer, its important to also remember that its just as illegal for Canadian dealers to sell into the U.S. as it is for U.S. dealers to sell products.


Risestar, I disagree. It is not illegal for a Canadian dealer to sell into the US. It may be illegal for a Canadian dealer to do so only if he is operating from within the US. Anyhow, there has not been 1 US hardware dealer to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), that has faced any sort of criminal charges (I am excluding test card dealers of course). All the penalties have been civil (and minimal) to date. Furthermore, most of the bigger US players have been nailed multiple times and are still in business. They get shut down and reopen with no fear of any criminal charges. Penalties have consisted of relatively small fines which dont get paid anyhow, since the business gets bankrupted. Consequently, I dont see how you can say that a Canadian can be extradited to the US to face criminal charges, when no American has even faced criminal charges over selling 'hardware'. Of course DTV could launch a lawsuit against any one of us, however, as Canadians, the judgement is only legally enforcable within the US, so again, how is that a concern?

Dime

[GhostDog]

Originally posted by RiseStar


Certainly it is a time for all people including dealers to carefully rethink their strategy and take steps or make changes to protect themselves and their customers accordingly as they have widely used dealers customer lists for further actions against end users.

On this note, I agree. We keep no records, we dont even have a shipping account for that reason. Cash is paid daily at the courier company when we ship, so there is no trace. Our new credit card processor is in Quebec, Canada so that is very safe. Of course Paypal is a US corporation, so that is the least safe method of payment (however proof of a paypal payment to a dealer is not enough evidence to get any sort of conviction or even a 'letter'... shipping records are the most vital info. - so make sure your dealer does not ship via an account with records, especially through a major courier). We also offer cash/money order payments that are virtually untraceable.

Risestar, maybe there should be a thread where the dealers on this site can post their 'privacy policies' and what they are doing to protect their customers information.

Thanks

Dime

[RiseStar]

That is a falacy. It certainly is illegal for Canadian dealers to sell products into the U.S. Test cards and test card products are considered CONTRABAND to U.S. customs and U.S. law, which is why they are seized at the border when detected.

Just because DTV has not pursued any hardware dealer in canada yet, does not means all is ok at all. This is like all the people that said DTV had never ECM'd the emulator, so that meant it could never be ECM'd. They all found out otherwise didn't they?

Test cards are clearly a violation of the U.S. Telecommunications Act, which provides criminal and civil remedies, so DTV can pursue test card dealers criminally as they have in the past, both in CANADA and in the USA.

Hardware is more of a grey area and so there are less chances of a criminal conviction under the U.S. Telecomm Act, then there is for Test Card dealers. This is why they have chosen to pursue dealers civilly thru the DMCA, as it has a better chance of success. Their motives are more of an INJUNCTIVE nature rather than PUNITIVE, so mostly they simply want the offending dealer to close up and go away.

I cannot speak for the dealer re-opening up, but DTV is no push over as you are seeming to contend. Perhaps ask Scott Gray from Shanty or Micale from EQ Stuff to see if they think its no big deal, I suspect they are treating it VERY seriously.

Not keeping records/ operating clandestinely perhaps is better for your customers, however it is NOT for you. Should there be a legal complication, you can bet that CANADA CUSTOMS & REVENUE AGENCY will be called in and they will do a full audit to determine if all appropriate taxes were paid. Without receipts, you have little proof on exactly how much transactions were for, and so they could afix an arbritary value or income for you and tax you accordingly. Without receipts you have no proof and no protection against them afixing an unrealistic income and taxing your accordingly.

In addition, should you be victimized by the RCMP as Vcipher was, you have no proof of income and as such cannot prove damages should you ever decide to venture down that road.

As I said, its a great time to reaccess many things and protect yourself accordingly.



Originally posted by Dimedealer


Risestar, I disagree. It is not illegal for a Canadian dealer to sell into the US. It may be illegal for a Canadian dealer to do so only if he is operating from within the US. Anyhow, there has not been 1 US hardware dealer to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), that has faced any sort of criminal charges (I am excluding test card dealers of course). All the penalties have been civil (and minimal) to date. Furthermore, most of the bigger US players have been nailed multiple times and are still in business. They get shut down and reopen with no fear of any criminal charges. Penalties have consisted of relatively small fines which dont get paid anyhow, since the business gets bankrupted. Consequently, I dont see how you can say that a Canadian can be extradited to the US to face criminal charges, when no American has even faced criminal charges over selling 'hardware'. Of course DTV could launch a lawsuit against any one of us, however, as Canadians, the judgement is only legally enforcable within the US, so again, how is that a concern?

Dime

[GhostDog]

Originally posted by RiseStar


Not keeping records/ operating clandestinely perhaps is better for your customers, however it is NOT for you. Should there be a legal complication, you can bet that CANADA CUSTOMS & REVENUE AGENCY will be called in and they will do a full audit to determine if all appropriate taxes were paid. Without receipts, you have little proof on exactly how much transactions were for, and so they could afix an arbritary value or income for you and tax you accordingly. Without receipts you have no proof and no protection against them afixing an unrealistic income and taxing your accordingly.


I'm not sure where you got that idea Risestar, but I never said I dont keep records! I said that I dont keep ANY SHIPPING RECORDS. Of course we keep the reciepts when we go mail the packages but there are no customer names on reciept. They are kept as an 'expense'. Of course I keep payment records, we sell via our own merchant account (based in Canada) which was set up through our corporation, so of course we file tax returns, there is a record of every online sale that we make.

Dime

[RiseStar]

Sorry Dime, I took your "We keep no records" to mean just that. Accurate records are unfortunately a double edged sword in this industry.

[seymour_teevee]

Originally posted by RiseStar
...Test cards and test card products are considered CONTRABAND to U.S. customs and U.S. law, which is why they are seized at the border when detected. ...

Interesting. When I stated exactly that same notion two months ago, a couple of the forum Admins called me everything but legitimate in their rush to bash me. Funny how subsequent events seem to be proving my unpopular views correct. But, what do I know? I'm just a scaremonger (one of their gentler descriptive terms, not mine). For the record, I've never been concerned about popularity. I've been VERY concerned about getting people to wake up and smell the coffee.

[gunsmoke2]

Calm down seymour because not one of us or myself have ever said that testcards were not illegal in the US.. Always said that hardware products were illegal in the US.. always said US Customs will seize just programmers as they are illegal in the US.. never said anything different two months ago..


If you would take the time to read as I often convey to you I have warned Canadian Dealers who sell into the US that they have exposure.. right now if they sell domestically in Canada they are not at risk.


Nothing has changed about your unpopularity and the ever so often incorrect comments on the law seymour.. I would need a dedicated forum to list them all.


You don't express concern or offer any positive assistance just the fear factor.. end users getting letters is a good example of that.. did you ever express they could defend themselves and stand a reasonable success at winning.. No


You bring on alot of comments directed at yourself by many members here... being Mr negative on everything to the extreme like suggesting Dean was a Plant trying to turn in people served what purpose.. your purposes are clear and distinct and are hard pressed to believe its out of concern


GS2

[gunsmoke2]

Of course DTV could launch a lawsuit against any one of us, however, as Canadians, the judgement is only legally enforcable within the US, so again, how is that a concern?




Dime,


You know I have expressed selling into the US was exposure.. I said this out of "real" concern for you. I will not use the fear factor but just go over real events in the Past.


Are you aware of Norm ---- and al ? DTV sued and won a Judgement for 32 million in the US. Next they ( DTV ) come and petition the Courts in Canada to collect on their Judgement. The time to defend yourself is at the proceedings in the US but most do not... they stand little chance of winning and lawyer fees are so high..


Norm lost everything and is rumored to be living at his Parents ? Dave Dawson lost everything.. in Sask there is a provision that prevented DTV from collecting that applies to Sask and maybe NS ? but then DTV will file the lawsuit again in Canada. The individual there settled out of Court..


Look what happened to Dean.. MM was recently hit.. many others..


Who do think DTV will go after next.. any big vendors selling into the US..


DTV or the authorities can get a criminal inditment.. no you would not be extradicted currently but you would never be able to travel to the US again.


Hopefully nothing will ever happen but you should atleast be aware that you have risk... some say its worth it.. others think not.. choices..


GS2

[GhostDog]

gunsmoke, the one thing all those you mentioned have in common is 'test cards'... something we dont deal in...

[gunsmoke2]

Dime,


It doesn't matter if its tests cards or hardware to program the cards IMHO.. DTV is mostly taking down hardware vendors.. you would be looking at being sued in the US for financial damages suffered by DTV.


Not saying it will happen only that you should be aware.


GS2

[BubbaHill]

Gunsmoke,
You are a very wise Man. Thank you!
Bubba