R134 alternates...

[crownvic]

Any of you guys know a good alternate to use for r134 in an auto A/C?
System came standard with R134 but R134 sucks in some climates with high humidity.. I was thinking of going back with R12 but darn stuff is to expensive and I don't know if it will work well with a system that as originally had R134 in it.
Like to get some input of you guys that are in the A/c feild.
thanks Vic..

[sparker]

if you change the recv/dryer and the oil in the compressor it should be ok to use r12 if you can find it

[easyrider]

There is a product called Freeze-12 on the market. One of the tractor dealers near me uses it. R-12a is also out there, a case of 12 runs 68 dollars US. Use yahoo and type this "freeze 12" use the quotation marks. You will also need to change the expansion valve or orifice tube depending on which your system has. The real test will come when you try to find an adaptor to let you use R12 gauges on a 134 system.

[crownvic]

Originally posted by easyrider
The real test will come when you try to find an adaptor to let you use R12 gauges on a 134 system.
Oh yeah I know..lol,
i've just called around and going from 12 to 134 is no problem they make adaptors but not the other way around.
Thanks for the replies, I thought that the oil used for R134 systems is compatible with R12 as it is synthetic and not mineral oil.
I'll do some checking on the freeze 12 and R12a but i think you need a license to buy it.
again thanks.
vic.

[JMANI]

CROWNVIC, The 134A gives you problems in traffic? I am an A/C contractor, but I helped the local police with this problem by putting an electric fan in front of the condenser the bigger the better. Then when you are stopped in traffic it still removes the heat.

[crownvic]

Well the car already as a electric fan that comes on when the A/C is on and there is no room to add.
R134 compared to R12 for cooling just is'nt worth a darn,I understand what you are saying though. Keeping the head pressure of the condenser as low as possible will definetly help When the car is at an idle in traffic..
thanks.
Vic.

[phoztech]

someone once told m that propane cools really well .. however it also explodes...

[crownvic]

Originally posted by phoztech
someone once told m that propane cools really well .. however it also explodes...
I ain't ready to get rid of the car yet..lol:Z

[easyrider]

To my knowledge you don't need a license to purchase R-12a. I am going to PM you a link where you can buy es-12a and you can also buy a hose kit from them to put it in your 134a system. Click the links on the site about this product and the product called glacier gold.
Here is small copy and paste about Glacier Gold:

Freon Alternative
Glacier GOLD Refrigerants are ultra-efficient replacements for both Freon and 134a systems.

6 oz. of Glacier GOLD is equivalent to 18 oz. of Freon or 16 oz of 134a. It's 9.4 F colder than Freon (R-12) and 15.4 F colder than 134a! It's very light, easier to compress.

Compressors will use 30-40% less horsepower compressing it. Colder temps and better gas mileage is the result.

[crownvic]

thanks it looks like I've found the perfect alternate...:)

[phoztech]

what is the cost comparison of this glacier gold to r-12 and r134A?

and if it is feasible why are manufacturers not using it?

but heck if it makes it that much cooler ,, i will use it .. the texas heat can get wicked in the summer..

[Blaster]

I made a snoot-full of money with R12. Back when I heard it was going to be discontinued I bought it everytime I saw it :) Sold 30 pounders for $700 and cases of 12oz cans for $200. All gone now, but I am hearing that 134 is going to be discontinued by like 2005 in favor of C02, yup, C02 high pressure systems (no retrofit there ;) ) so maybe it's time to stock-up again?

Any body else heard anything else about C02?

[phoztech]

i sent an email to the people that are selling the enviro safe product replacement for r-12/r-134a.. i asked them if it impacted car manufacturer warranties.

Thanks for the link crownvic..

[jmpo]

I looked into R-12/143 replacements a couple weeks ago after seeing a plug on TruckTV (TNN)for a product called DURACOOL.

After looking at their website and determining that the product is indeed sold as a drop-in replacement for FREON (12/134a), I also did some research at the US EPA. I found this notice: http://www.epa.gov/docs/ozone/title6/snap/hc-12a.html

It seems that the 'hydrocarbon' based refigerants are indeed propane or butane based and are prohibited for use in automoboles in the USA. Their use is only permitted in stationary installations.

The 'Glacier Gold' site is missing an MSDS (or the Canadian equivalent), but since it specifies it is hydro-carbon based, you can assume it's flammable.

I might be a good idea to see if the product is actually safe to use in the manner you intend to.

jmpo

[crownvic]

ENVIRO-SAFE is flammable, but its ignition temperature is 1585ºF at both 5 psi and 0 psi (which is better than the DuPont R-134a's ignition temperature of 368ºF at 5 psi and 1411ºF at 0 psi).

above is a copy and paste of the product,actually R12 is the only non-flammable product used in automotive..

[phoztech]

well this is all very interesting.. i am still waiting to hear back form the people i emailed...

this last weekend i did recharge my ac in my truck,, and i think that i have found were the leak from last summer was coming from... it apears it is from the compressor itself (i noticed some residue from ac oil around the compressor) it is a very slow leak it takes a few months to leak out... my question is do any of yall think it is causing more damage not fixing on a more permanant basis or is it ok just to recharge it every now and then?

I imagine tht it will start to wear out the compressor as the r134a level drops and the low side pressure switch kicks the ompressor on and off...

[easyrider]

Here is what the government site states about warranty:

If you plan to change a car from HFC-134a to a hydrocarbon refrigerant such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a®, you should consider that auto manufacturers have stated that changing the refrigerant in new vehicles designed for use with HFC-134a will void the warranty and may damage the system. If the air conditioner on a new car or truck is not working, consult a qualified mechanic or your dealer.

Note it does not give specific manufacturer names. It could mean just that only a couple have stated this. Also take note of the "may" damage the system. This seems to imply there has been no actual testing by the "auto manufacturers" Sort of a smoke and mirrors statement.


Originally posted by phoztech
i sent an email to the people that are selling the enviro safe product replacement for r-12/r-134a.. i asked them if it impacted car manufacturer warranties.

Thanks for the link crownvic..

[easyrider]

Here is the actual statement from the US government site:

The following 18 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia.

Notice anything wrong with this? They failed to mention the flammable 134a.


jmpo
(QUOTE)
It seems that the 'hydrocarbon' based refigerants are indeed propane or butane based and are prohibited for use in automoboles in the USA. Their use is only permitted in stationary installations.

[crownvic]

Originally posted by phoztech
well this is all very interesting.. i am still waiting to hear back form the people i emailed...

this last weekend i did recharge my ac in my truck,, and i think that i have found were the leak from last summer was coming from... it apears it is from the compressor itself (i noticed some residue from ac oil around the compressor) it is a very slow leak it takes a few months to leak out... my question is do any of yall think it is causing more damage not fixing on a more permanant basis or is it ok just to recharge it every now and then?

I imagine tht it will start to wear out the compressor as the r134a level drops and the low side pressure switch kicks the ompressor on and off...

The problem there is that it is the loss of oil that will eventually cause the compressor to fail.
You may try one of the stop leaks on the market and add an oil charge with the 134..
If your compressor is not noisy i think that may do the trick..
Sure beats buying a new compressor and accumilator/dryer...

Crvic..

[crownvic]

Originally posted by easyrider
Here is the actual statement from the US government site:

The following 18 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia.

Notice anything wrong with this? They failed to mention the flammable 134a.


jmpo
(QUOTE)
It seems that the 'hydrocarbon' based refigerants are indeed propane or butane based and are prohibited for use in automoboles in the USA. Their use is only permitted in stationary installations.

I think i smell fish somewhere easyrider:(

[easyrider]

Originally posted by crownvic


I think i smell fish somewhere easyrider:(


I smell a pay off.....:eek: