Florida Case Update

[Cardozo]

Mr. Zakarian (zakarian@tampabay.rr.com) has informed me of the following:

DTV has responded to some of the initial round of discovery from some of the defendants. Some interesting points:

1. DTV admits has not actually observed these defendants pirating signals.

2. DTV admits it has not actually observed these defendants modifying specific devices.

3. DTV admits it has no actual knowledge of any signals that were pirated by these defendants.

4. DTV admits it does not have the original receipts from the purchases by these defendants (old VCipher purchases).

5. In response to questions about whether it was NOT illegal to modify, purchase or sell these devices, DTV denied that claim. (This is an interesting response since big companies like Circuit City and MSN.com sell this stuff and there isa huge market in Europe that is flooding here concerning the expansion of Smart card readers).

6. DTV denies having any records from Scullion and VCipher in 1998.

7. DTV denied the claim that illegally receiving DTV sat transmissions was NOT the only use for the devices that the defendants purchased. (Another disingenuous response).

Keep in mind that these admissions were made pursuant to very specifically worded discovery requests. The answers by DTV mean only one thing in response to a specific question. Do not extrapolate them to be anything other than what they are. Also, do not take this to be a victory. We are far from that. There are many aspects and disingenuous claims that DTV is making that Mr. Zakarian, Esquire must disprove and that will be expensive.

More updates to come as more discovery is received from DTV. So far, they pretty much have what we thought...nada. Their case is purely on theory....a theory we hope proves unworkable. They are asking to set an extemely dangerous precedent.

[buster02]

Very interesting. One question if I may Cardozo. If DTV does not have the original reciepts, where did their receipts come from. Is it possible that they themselves wrote fake receipts from the information from a computer printout? Can they verify that indeed any devices legal or illegal were indeed sent and recieved by anyone that they are accusing?

[Cardozo]

Good question.

I have spoken with Mr. Zakarian (tampabay.rr.com) about this very topic on many ocassions. Please keep in mind that while this may be a juicy topic for VCipher receipts (the Fla. defendants have these), this topic is useless for other companies like WhiteViper, DSSstuff, DSSCanuck, etc.'s receipts. Also, and more importantly, whether the receipts are valid or original, remember that DTV is using these suits to go fishing for evidence after the fact to prove their claim. They are banking that when you take the stand you will not lie and you will admit to pirating or at least purchasing these devices.

At the moment, there is no ruling from any court that simple purchase is a crime. Naturally, the feds are not prosecuting it either. Possession can be a crime if you possess with the intent to use improperly OR if the device purchased can ONLY be used for signal theft or its substantial use is that. The bottom line is that DirecTV may have enough to prove their case from you even without the receipts.

Don't be myopic and lose sight of the big picture.

[Evildss]

It looks to me, even if they have a mailing list from a company busted that they would need evidence that you signed for the package, anybody can use your name and address? If you paid with credit card, hope u reported it stolen :o , if you paid with paypal, don't know what to say :eek:
Keep up the good work Cardozo!!!
Also, do u know if there is a statute of limitations on these civil matters? Or can they come after you 10 years after the purchase?
Good LUck to All ;)

[bigstuff]

Originally posted by Evildss
It looks to me, even if they have a mailing list from a company busted that they would need evidence that you signed for the package, anybody can use your name and address? If you paid with credit card, hope u reported it stolen :o , if you paid with paypal, don't know what to say :eek:
Keep up the good work Cardozo!!!
Also, do u know if there is a statute of limitations on these civil matters? Or can they come after you 10 years after the purchase?
Good LUck to All ;)

Evil,
This is another area where DTV is bending the laws, statue of limitations I believe is two years but at any rate DTV is trying to circumvent this by stating they did not have knowledge of these events until Discovery in the Vcipher issue.

[WECU]

What companies in the Florida case are actually listed.
Also what law firm is handling this case in Florida against the persons who purchased "Illegal Devices".

Remember lawyers do not enjoy losing in court. One or more of them will attempt to set a precident in reguards to this matter. Being in law enformcement, understand "Intent". Intent has been used many times to prove many cases.

One key point. Always remember you have the right to remain silent. Silence is what got Mr. OJ Simpson off, as well as many other defendants. Never admit to anything and always have your attorney present. After reading one of these "VERY INTERESTING" letters we only can say one thing, only discuss this matter with your attorney.


WECU

[Cardozo]

Albert A. Zakarian, Esquire
Anthony G. Woodward, P.A. (is the law firm)
2024 West Cleveland Street
Tampa, FL 33606
(813) 251-2200


These are the guys handling the Middle District of Florida Suit and advising many people pre-suit.

I understand the need not to admit anything. But, in the long run, if you plan on litigating the matter, eventually you will be under oath. Do you plan on telling the truth at the time? If you do, then all the silence in the world is not going to help you now.

Additionally, until some court rules otherwise, it has not been determined that mere possession of such devices is illegal despite what the DTV letters imply. Simply admitting you bought one is not what gets you in trouble. Its the intent and/or use to pirate signals that is illegal. Now of course, if you possess a device that has only one legit use...pirating signals, then of course mere possession could be equated to use. That is something that has yet to be determined. The scariest device in this regard is the unloopers. We all know that ISO 7816 Programmers and smart card readers have universal use all over the world for many applications. Its the peripheral devices that are causing the most problems.

[WECU]

Cardoza,

What firm is against everyone on this matter. Location, name, etc.

[Cardozo]

DTV's head firm is Yardmuth, Wildson out of Seatle, WA.

They hire regional counsel in various areas of the Country to handle the DTV lawsuits and some of the pre-suit stuff. DTV firms I know of so far are: Greer, Herz & Adams out of Texas is handling the midwest for DTV. Stump, Storey, Callahan is handling Middle District Florida for DTV. Thats what I have for now.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Cordozo,

While I hear what you are saying, remember that an unlooper is simply a ISO-7816 programmer that is itself programmable by the feature of an Atmel chip. The many flashes that are wisely available also set out some glitch points but these are not necessarily the case. These glitches can either be used or not used depending on the script that a person creates to run the device.

So while the use is sometimes to glitch, that is not a mandatory use.

If I were to choose a programmer to use I would always choose an Unlooper since I can alter its function via the Atmel chip which can be programmed in place by the very device it is installed in, the Unlooper. This was done via a very tricky use of timing but that is unimportant. For a few dollars extra ANY PROGRAMMER dealing with smart cards of ANY TYPE would choose the Unlooper over a straight programmer even if he NEVER touched one of the NDS made cards.

As a knowledgeable programmer, I would choose these Unlooper devices (that general name) as a programmer every time. It is a vastly superior Programmable ISO-7816 programmer at virtually the same price as other programmers sold by DSS sites and about 15% of the price that other vendors such as Gemplus sell inferior (to these) programmers.

I am also SURE that DirecTV® knows that since they have engineers who use them every day. Someone needs to subpoena some of their engineers or at least talk to them.

Second point is that people need to know that DirecTV® possess ONLY stolen property and NO ORIGINAL from Vcipher. Unlike the many other names mentioned, Vcipher and /or myself NEVER cooperated and supplied DirecTV® anything. Whatever they have (and nobody really knows what that is) it is stolen property and I am suing them for $56 million dollars because it is stolen property and they are aware of that fact and yet continue to use it.

I have also mentioned that in a plethora of articles at:

http://www.legal-rights.org/DTVBOX.html

And they have also sued several defendants who purchased VIRGIN H-Cards which in fact were purchased from THEM. It will be interesting to see how they would prove that VIRGIN cards which were purchased from them and then resold for use as subscribable cards, have anything to do with piracy.

In many cases the use of these cards was to subscribe them and then send them off to the Bahamas or other places where they cannot subscribe except for by this "grey market" method. As the credit cards used were Bahamian, Costa Rican, and from many other central American countries, DirecTV® knew very well where these were used. Many of the buyers (eventual) were people using "hacked" cards who decided it was not worth the ECM's and decided to subscribe but DID NOT have a subscribable card. So they purchased these from vendors in Miami who deal with these exports on a daily basis. Vendors and exporters in Miami probably supply 75% of the luxury goods of all types that are imported into these Central and South American countries.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

With these answers it becomes clear that they are on a FISHING expedition but DO NOT let that go to your heads folk because every time you go into a courtroom, it could go either way depending on many other factors that have NOTHING to DO with the law but rather who the Judge is, his personal prejudices, If it is a male or female justice, his/her mood and how good a sleep he/she did or did not get last night. Judges are HUMAN and so have all the HUMAN frailties we all have.
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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!

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[Cardozo]

Well said.

[Zhakil]

Cardozo - many thanks for the update.

Given that information, I don't see how DTV can really go forward with their suit. Does it not cost them money to file? Without one coming out and saying that they used the device to "steal" the DTV sat signal, they have no real case.

I agree with TTRK about the unloopers. Those devices are far superior to a generic programmer. Also important to note, from what I have read: most of the unloopers sold DID NOT have software on the flash specific to "hacking" the DTV smart cards.

What DTV is doing is more like extortion - pay us or pay an attorney. Either way you will be punished no matter your innocence. There has to be a way to stop this non-sense.

Zk..

[Cardozo]

You are right on target.

The only way to stop them is to do what Mr. Zakarian, Esquire is doing in Florida...litigate the issue until you get an actual court ruling. So far, I am unaware of any court ruling addressing these very critical issues. DirecTV has been successful in making people settle prior to ever getting a decision. Obviously, some ruling came down in California. BUT, those were on jurisdiction, not the core issues.

[Zhakil]

Since Mr. Zakarian is fighting this, (with the defendants,) maybe many Florida people can benefit if this is put to bed ASAP.

DTV may try to drag it out so they can collect more extortion money on "settlements".

Little Scenario to think over:
A person is a subsciber to DTV at say $72 per month. That person also gets DirecDSL for about $54 per month. So $126 per month. Now, DTV slams them with a lawsuit and settles for say $1500. The defendant then cancels his $126 subs per month. Even if he/she doens't convince friends and family to do the same, in less than 1.5 years, DTV has lost legitimit revenue. Wonder if the DTV Board has thought about this, hmmmmm.

Zk...

[dmattear]

they are demanding subscrictions as part of your settlement. you should have a lawyer draw up your settlement to suit you if you choose to go this route. the lawyer i spoke with says he would not advise signing any such agreement.

[WECU]

As stated by many the agreement is all one sided for DTV. Nothing benifits the individuals.

WECU

Thank you for posting information about the law firms handling the DTV matters against the persons involved.

[Cardozo]

There appears to be some misconceptions about how DirecTV is settling with people.

First, DirecTV has not, at least with any of Mr. Zakarian's defendants, demanded subscriptions or package increases as part of a settlement. It can be part of the settlement if you want it too, but it is not demanded.

Second, the DirecTV release that is posted is old. The current release has been revised and is not nearly as scary. Mr. Zakarian (zakarian@tampabay.rr.com) says that most of the provisions of the release are not of any consequence UNLESS you plan on doing the same thing again. If you do not, then most of the release has no impact.

FInally, the point about loss of revenue is well taken. I have tohught about this and I think that DirecTV will not realize, from an accounting standpoint, the real effect of this until about 2 years from now. Remember, from their point of view, those losses will be offset by the money they think they are losing to pirates. There are two sides to that ledger you must look at.

[WECU]

If possible could you please post a copy of the new release for all to view.

Thank You

[Boojer]

After reading TTRK' post about who ratted out, it would seem to me that the only evidence Dave has was obtained by a less than legal means. If I remember right, evidence obtained illegally is not admissable in a US court.

[Cardozo]

The "illegal evidence" topic is juicy, but of little value to most people in their individual fights against DirevTV. DTV is banking on the fact that they will discover additional evidence of your purchases like credit card statements, admissions under oath, etc. Moreover, until the courts say that mere possession of the device is illegal, it makes little difference if they can prove you purchased something. They've got to prove use or convince a court that mere possession and purchase from a "hacker" website equals use. That is a big jump.

Realy guys, we've got to get passed this invoice thing. It only affects VCipher purcahses. I can tell you that those are not the majority of people who are now being sued or threatened by DTV. So the illegal invoice thing is not at all relevant to those persons.

[Boojer]

So we would need to prove that the person who stole the evidence was compensated for it. We got both his and his girlfriends name and address maybe they both should be deposed.

[Evildss]

The big thing is if they can prove actual purchase or possession is grounds to win a suit........so they wouldn't have to prove "use"! Lets just hope the Great Zakarian can defeat this claim......if not, the letters will pour by the thousands on a daily basis......:(

[Makaha]

"They've got to prove use or convince a court that mere possession and purchase from a "hacker" website equals use."

Maybe I am a little slow here, but since this is civil, don't they have to prove actual damges by actions? I mean the above, if accepted by the courts, could be applied to a million different things.

[Cardozo]

Damages is a good question. Unfortunately, as explained by Mr. Zakarian (tampabay.rr.com) it is not going to help us. The statutes DTV is suing under have their own damages clauses built in. No actual damages need be proven. Moreover, the courts have held that they will assume damages if the violations have been proven.

[mlmanning]

up

[JD490]

We need a ruling that says the purchase of ISO 7816 devices do not violate 47 U.S.C 605 & 18 USC 2520B. This will stop the letters. If the defendants win from lack of evidence that they used the devices to steal Dave TV then I would think the letters would still be sent. I'm little surprised DTV opened up the can of worms denying that is was NOT illegal to purchase ISO 7816 devices. This I would think could cause a ruling on the purchase. Cardozo can Zakarian ask the court to rule on if the purchase of ISO 7816 devices violates the law? I guess the court would have to hear some expert testimony on other uses of ISO 7816 devices.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Zhakil

Its actually much worse than just the revenue they get from the subscription.

Companies of this type are VALUED at $2500.00 to $3000.00 or more per subscriber. Take a look at DirecTV™ price of 26 billion if they sell to Charlie of Dish network (if its approved) for under 10 million subs at the time. That's $2600.00 + per subscription, and for EVERY SUB even those with a minimum package. And that price will be revised at the time of the sale. So the cost to DirecTV™ is MUCH more than the value of a sub and every time someone cancels it costs them about $2600.00 from the value of the company PLUS the reduction in revenue. That is a LOT!!!.

Remember people that the Vcipher invoices were actully stolen (no others) but that has to be proven and DirecTV™ give some bull about some "Alan Juan" because they signed an agreement to protect the thief that they paid. If his name gets out they know the jig will be up with Vcipher customers and perhaps everyone else since fabricating is illegal. But this does not apply to others or even Vcipher until its proved and someone subpoenas Scott Donigetr and he tells the truth. I doubt if his lawyer will let him lie since he has an obligation NOT to let him lie but that needs to be seen and should be done in discovery. Since he is in Chicago a lawyer needs to go upther to depose him and that is costly.

There are some lawyers trying to get this info because they are aware that the invoices are NOT real, they even admit to having no originals. But if they get a credit card number or other data such as an address they can send an investigator to the nearest Fedex address and try to find out if you received a package from Vcipher. They are very devious people and they spend a lot to try to make their cases. Mr. Z has asked them 20 ways from hell to supply the original of the invoice (and an other lawyer too) and they keep beating their way around it and avoiding that. They even raided me again to try to get those but they are ---- out of luck because the invoices I have here are print outs from a database but not the ORIGINAL ONE we used in Vciphers business. So they still do not have the REAL THING even if they THINK they do. You see I do not have any copies of the originals and I get them from the RCMP as I need them for lawyers evidence.

This is no cakewalk people mainly because people who have the money to go the mile with them in court have not decided to do so and they continue to settle. That helps nobody.

I would recommend that you form a donation site (I will post it on legal rights if the donations are sent to Mr. Zakarian but I wont collect the money. Have him take his very best case, donate $200.00 each or more depending on your abilities for a few thousand of you and have him go to court with it. This way you may well create winning jurisprudence for people with ISO-7816 programmers and unloopers all across the country. There are nearly 100,000 getting these letters in all (they have many to go yet) so it should not be that hard. But you have to DO IT!!!

Its easy to get a university professor who can testify as an expert that ALL HU card readers/writers are unloopers with the right software but that does not have to be used that way especially since it was only released recently. An unlooper (so called) is nothing more than a programmable programmer that can glitch with the RIGHT SOFTWARE and someone needs to hire an Expert from a university who can work with one, read all types of cards and testify that its just a programmer with some added glitch feature that many flashes DO NOT USE. They are so cheap that there is virtually no difference in cost yet they can be programmed to do ANY card and there are HUNDREDS of flashes for them. I have posted this info above and on legal-rights.org but it takes more than my saying this to make it true. It is true and I understand these devices thoroughly since I used to work with them a long time ago but its NOT hard to PROVE. Just get a god damn expert (a smart card programming professor from a local university) give him flashes and he will test the device and show that it can program thousands of smart card OTHER than DTV's and is fully programmable via the atmel flash. Its easy but you have to do it.

I will be glad to host a donation site (which is 100% legal for anyone to donate to) and the PayPal and credit cards can be authorized to Mr. Zakarian on the basis that if X dollars is collected (probably $10,000.00 to start) he will begin a case with his BEST CASE. It may not help boot loader buyers but it sure wont hurt. But someone ELSE needs to organize it and I will Post it on legal rights which gets an unbelievable number of hits from the right folk.

Any volunteers. If so call Mr. Zakarian and get him to contact me at ttrk@legal-rights.org.

I speak to him all the time and was aware of what Cordozo posted at the top over 6 months ago but he asked me not to post it so I did not. But I have great relations with him and he once mentioned this to me, the idea of a donation site. These cases CAN be won for most people (unless you cancelled you sub after buying and did not have other options like cable). That may make your case look worse circomstantially and it coul only be a fluke too. But this would set jurisprudence for most of you with ISO-7816 pprogrammers, ISO-7816 UNLOOPERS and Emulators which just save cards when testing. See

http://www.legal-rights.org/DTVBOX.html

for lots of imfo on this but DIG around.

So now guys, its up to you.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

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Thanks & Good Luck,
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To The REAL King!!

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