The courtcase in a layman's terms (opinion)

[kevmetric]

A simplification of the Grey and Black satellite market issue

Introduction

Assume you live in a village. In this village, there are many
people, and these people, naturally need to eat. Therefore,
they have decided to levy and collect a tax on the villagers,
so that 2 cooks can by hired on a full time basis, to
prepare either muffins, or donuts. Assume for the sake
of this example, that those two foods, are all that the
villagers require, in matters of diet.

In comes a new resident, of this village. This person,
does not like donuts. Does not like muffins, either. However,
he has found a way to import from another village, outside,
something we shall call pizza. Sometimes, he pays a cook
from that other village, for his pizzas. Sometimes he just
travels to his former village, and when the cook is not
looking, put a piece of pizza under his jacket, and then
takes it home with him.

Analysis

After a while, the outside village finds it funny, that there are
missing pieces of pizza, among the expected production run. As well,
the village in which he lives, finds it funny that their new
resident, does not buy donuts, or muffins, but something they've
never seen before. They don't know what it is, but they don't care.
However, the village mayor is concerned about this, because
the baker (or cook) of the muffins and donuts is making
increasingly less money, less profits and less of those two
foods. He needs the sales to compensate for the fixed costs,
spread over a large production run that used to be the case,
because the small variable costs of baking powder and flour
is insignificant. The large costs are related to the baker's
housing, rent, wages, salaries, administrative, and miscellaneous
expenses. The village is increasingly turning down the muffins
and donuts, and rather, copying the man, by either swiping
or buying a new product, the pizza, from the outside village.

At this point, the baker is facing bankruptcy.

The villagers are concerned. If the cook goes out of business,
they won't have muffins or donuts anymore. They will starve.

Many other villagers are not concerned, however. They stand up,
and announce to the others: you can starve all you want, if
necessary, but you can do as I do: swipe or buy pizza from
the outside village!

Of course, some can't accept this ...they have less money,
cannot afford the imported pizza, don't want to swipe it
or buy it, or maybe don't enjoy pizza at all.

At this point, the town mayor steps in, and takes both
parties to court.

1. The court needs to decide ... shall we allow some residents
to swipe the pizza from the other town's baker ?

2. Shall we allow our residents, in this village, to import
pizza in this town from outside ?

3. Shall we allow our residents, to snub muffins and donuts,
which they claim to dislike and refuse to eat ?

4. Should we allow the import of pizza into this town, and
tax it, so very few people purchase it ?

5. Shall we can train the existing cook, to prepare
pizza, in addition to muffins and donuts ?

6. Shall hire the outside cook, and ask him to drop by
on weekends, to prepare the town's pizza, for us here?

Conclusion

The judges have yet to make a final decision, but everything
points towards pizza being outlawed in the town, the residents
will be forced to eat muffins and donuts whether they would
like to or not, and contribute to the tax revenue and sales
of the baker.

The danger, of course, is the baker going broke, and people
being forced either to starve to death, or import pizza from
the other town, at a much higher cost.

[GhostDog]

this is so rediculous...:R

[TestCardStore]

yes the analogies suck. Comparing TV to food which you need to survive is ridiculous.

I look at it this way.
You go to a restaurant. You sit at a table to get a meal and a big waft of apple pie steam drifts across the divider between the booths over your head and you happen to breath it in to enjoy the smell. The originator of the smell with his apple pie sends his lawyer over to tell you if you do not stop smelling the aroma you will be called a thief since he did not authorize you to inhale his pie particles. The restaraunt is crowded so you are forced to sit with two geeks across from you who you do not know, or really are interested in knowing and they say the same thing. You are a THIEF for smelling his pie particles. So you put a clothes pin over your nose and purchase your own piece of apple pie. But when it arrives at the table, the two bullies on the other side grab the pie from you and tell you you can 'only' have cherry pie at this table or they will sue you because they say thats the only thing allowed. You explain you do not really like cherry pie, but they do not care and throw your apple pie in the garbage.
Before they leave they put your name down on a list they will use to calculate how much money they are loosing on cherry pie sales to apple pie sellers to present to the restaraunt association.

In your example all I see happening is free enterprise which I thought this country was founded on. You may not like the fact that cash is flowing to the other village, but the original bakers do not have a god given "right" to my money. I send it where I wish. If you don't think big Canadian businesses do not screw US businesses you should do a little research on pending NAFTA cases. I'm not saying its right, but both sides do it.. but this is not the place to get into it.

To K.M. a while ago I bought a big screen TV and upgraded to digital cable with only 30-40 channels. Most of the time the box sat there as even with so few channels, 99% of them were just crap. I paid 50$ a month for something I probably used once a week to check news. I tried one ppv movie to see how good the quality was compared to dvd. After about 6 months I took it back and cancelled my cable. I actually went without cable or satellite for a LONG time and just got a paper for my news. This is with a pretty nice home theater set-up.. but I only rented dvd's. The cost was just too brutal even back then for what I got out of it.

Now one thing BCE and Shaw are assuming here, is that every gray subscriber is a lost subscriber to them. I think that is absolutely wrong as I went a long time with nothing, and didn't really miss it while just renting dvd's. What they are assuming is that they have a god given right to your money before anyone else. You know what? I like to think (maybe naievely) that I still control where I spend it.

You do in one post make a tiny bit of sense however in that the crtc needs to be taken apart as it has outlived its usefullness and like technology, has to change with the times.
TV used to be free. You watch the 'Osbournes' on MTV? One of the biggest hits this year. Notice how now you get about 15 minutes of show and 15 minutes of ads now? Don't tell me anyone is starving here.
The best thing I could see is open everything up, and charge 1$ per channels per month. Out of 5-600 channels that would make my cost about 5$ a month and I wouldn't care who my provider was. Given the choice I would always support Canada, except in this case with everything that has been pulled..

[dssmatrix]

I just do not understand one thing here..... if you are so against it, why come to this site?

[Psycho99]

Don't worry about the flamers, kevmetric. What did you expect on this board?

Hey poet, don't ya know it..

he was not not flamed.

And if you could, i bet you would..

like to have me to be blamed!:gg (How's that for poetry?)


How do you like that? I FLAMED your name.

~~The Psycho

[BrainDamage]

I am pretty sure I understand your scoop,
Too bad it makes as much sense as poop.

You are talking about food and pie,
We're talking about a signal from the sky.

You can't compare TV with food,
Sorry if I appeared to flame or be rude.

When your TV goes down, I'll bet you wish,
You knew more on how to hack your dish.

This poem was inspired by my mentor, Psycho99.

[Psycho99]

LMFAO, Brain!!! I think they'll close this one soon...but in the meantime...

I am so very sorry for what i said,
and am sure that you want to see me dead.

I would come back from the dead, you see
cause sometimes i need to hack fer more TV.

For now, i will say adieu,
please do not let out a boo hoo.

I do not want to seem turse,
but now it's time for someone else's verse.

I really enjoyed the verse by BRAIN,
Could it be that i'm insane?



~~The Psycho

[BrainDamage]

Psycho has risen from the dead,
So he could reply to this thread.

My nick is BrainDamage, but people still call be BRAIN,
After the next phrase, I will refrain.

I think kevmetric was trying to explain our woes,
Pretty soon this thread the MODS will close.

Tanya Mamme has a nice rack,
'Tis for her that my card I hack.

Sorry kevmetric if we've turned your query into a joke,
This is what happens to people to toke.

[gunsmoke2]

At this point, the baker is facing bankruptcy


If I got this correct then you mean the largest Canadian Corp that includes ExpressVu is facing bankruptcy.


Just like BCE when they deregulated who could supply phone service I think in 1991 and the Monopoly had to deal with competition.


Boy did they ever come close to bankruptcy.. what a close call



GS2

[kevmetric]

I don't know more than the average newspaper person,
but from what is printed, Bell Expressvu DOES NOT
MAKE MONEY, never has, and may never be able to
do so, unless the critical mass required for break
even is attained.

And that may or may not require asking that everyone
currently freeloading on Direct-TV or Echostar,
be moved over to BEV or StarChoice, for example.

Getting people away from freeloading and signing up
to StarChoice is better for Bell, than keeping them
on free satellite, because at least the people will
consider switching over, at a later date, if they're
not happy, and will begin accomodating the idea,
that they need to pay for what they use, rather
than get a free lunch.

[tarnat]

I would love to pay for what I use. I want to use dtv. Why can't I.

I think kev~ has some pretty close ties to bev~. Why else would he be here?

[davidnb]

BEV has a problem that we can't discuss here. Thats the only reason they have so many subs and are still losing money. Its been rumored that BEV is up for sell for the right price. On the other hand, SC is at the break even point this year and is suspose start turning a profit

[kevmetric]

To answer your question, nope ... I am only
a casual observer of the whole, mess, although
I do enjoy technology greatly, and admire the
passion and labor that people have placed in
their satellite systems, not to mention the
money, as well.

It looks like the whole story is coming to an end,
much like the CDR tax, that the government wants
to apply to fund the artists and composers
that need compensation (or so they claim) for
the music downloaded from Morpheus, Kazaa or
Audiogalaxy, for example.

The Internet, for a while, was a Wild West, disconnected
from reality, from legislation, from everything. Now,
people are catching up to it pretty fast, as they now
understand the profits and losses that can stem
from the conduct of people, on the Internet.

Before, only pornographers and pedophiles were busted, on
the Internet.

Today, more and more other parties are getting caught in
the grasps of law enforcement, for better or worse,
and that including people download mp3's, movies, software,
books, and so on and so forth, from the internet, or
learning how to hack satellite signals.

It's a sign of the times ... I guess similar to when
people arrived to North America, 500 years ago, killed wild
animals, enjoyed nature freely, without any legal framework,
only to be called to reality as civilization took hold of
the land.

[warezmike]

the internet is NOT a wild west...never has been and never will be.. what it is an outlet for people to decide what CONTENT they want to see, hear or use. It has been less than ten years since the internets inception and the only issue is how "corporate" types can try and CONTROL(read make a profit) what we can see hear or use. The true issue of the internet is that the "corporates" cannot control the info that is being disemminated and that scares them.
The crap that software or music companies are losing money to pirates is and always has been a joke and a poor excuse. The amount of time it takes for example to find, download and burn a music CD isnt worth it for a person who COULD afford to buy the music in the first place, it is much more conveient to just go out and buy the CD. Also, because BIG labels control what we generally hear, the internet has allowed many small bands to become popular because of the ability of people being allowed to hear their music!
Software users, the true pirates, are sick and tired of programs promising to deliver and then end up being bug ridden pieces of crap that has an end user license agreement that basically gives the user NO recourse for return. Thus by pirating the program, many just test drive the software, and if it is any good would end up purchasing the retail version for the support and the manuals.
How does this apply to us... well if a foreign signal is beamed through our airspace and we have the ability to capture it, a certain canadian company wants to make sure we dont have any access to it. Well for one if they really didnt want us to have it they wouldn't have used the technology of charlie to set up their own business, when the reception of that signal can be accidently aquired. Secondly as they are late players in the game, they think that by outlawing an illegal robust and established signal will increase their subscription base, but have yet to prove they can offer anything better. Remember, the amount of time and effort, not to mention money and frequent periods of outages, does not make the average person WANT to get a grey/black market satllite. People choose this hobby for various reasons and I doubt if Bell will see their sub base increase substantially, if anything the fact that Bell seems to have opened up our bedrooms to the government(where many people watch TV) the backlash and uproar will certainly bite them in the @ss

[davidnb]

"Now one thing BCE and Shaw are assuming here, is that every gray subscriber is a lost subscriber to them. "

Its the black market subs that have them all worked up. I don't think they give a dam about grey market. The exchange on the dollar kills any wide spread subs of US programming.

[Clarkey]

This thread is all about Krispy Kreme and Tim Horton's, right?

:cool:

[gunsmoke2]

I don't know more than the average newspaper person,
but from what is printed, Bell Expressvu DOES NOT
MAKE MONEY, never has, and may never be able to
do so, unless the critical mass required for break
even is attained.

And that may or may not require asking that everyone
currently freeloading on Direct-TV or Echostar,
be moved over to BEV or StarChoice, for example



What makes you think that DTV has ever made a profit..it seems to be that GM wanted to unload DTV


I guess you are not aware that Wic Premium TV tried to sue Dish..USSB now DTV.. HBO.. Showtime and al. in Alberta..they first tried to sue USSB in 1993 in the US


Wic made an application for an injunction against the defendents for broadcasting into Canada.


Although the judge said there was enough evidence of them broadcasting into Canada he denied the motion because there wasn't enough evidence of irrepitable harm to Wic the plaintif.


The same applies to Bev or Star Choice as they can't show that Canadians who signed up for US services would have signed up for Canadian services.


Further to that both Canadian DTH companies ran extended long trade in programs to Canadians who had US systems to be traded for theirs.


I think you are sadly mistaken if you think Canadian masses will now signed up for Canadian DTH companies.. most I know have Canadian cable and don't need Canadian cable in the sky.


Years from now I'll speculate there will be only one Canadian DTH company as there isn't room for two. Thers only 30 million Canadians approx versus 300 million Amercans in the US that possibly looking at one US provider of Satellite signals.


And it wouldn't surprise me one day in the future there could be no Canadian DTH providers.


They have made their own mistakes by not studing the potential market in Canada for gloried Canadian cable in the sky


Who are they going to blame two years from now ?


GS2

[StarVu]

Unfortunately, I do think StarPuke and ExpressPuke will gain from the situation going on now…A few years ago while I was working for a store that sold StarPuke , They (starpuke) offered a trade in program for US sat systems…To my surprise we had a lot of people trading in Dish and DTV systems ,that were subbed systems, and their biggest complaint of the US systems was the dollar difference they were paying.
Lets faces it $80.00 us for a platinum package of DTV is around 128.00 CND and that’s a ---- load of cash each month for the average Joe.(personally I wouldn’t pay it, I just don’t watch that much tv)


SO , why not let DTV and Dish take paying customers from Canada( of coarse hacking is out) and see what Canadians are really willing to pay! Maybe a lot of folks would be surprised, personally I think Express and Star can do a lot of improving of their programming and take advantage of the price difference and for those who want to pay the big bucks for US programming ,well hell let them.

I kinda think there are a lot of DTV and Dish systems in Canada cause people thought they were getting something for nothing…From my own experience, when I tell customers what they are getting and what it is really worth, then ask them if they would pay for it thru a subb , the majority say NO WAY…


So in my perfect world …..Bell and Star and DTV and Dish would be here in Canada fighting for our Bizz and we all would have a great choice…….Remember this during the next ELECTION, we do have a choice and we have a Charter of Rights that makes us Canadians.

PLEASE GO TO www.legal-rights.org and read and understand this very important document , then contact your member of parliament and start asking WHY your freedoms are being taken from you

[StarVu]

Oh ya....the spring sale is over and I am no longer selling any products that may not comply with the situation going on here in our country...but my webb site will remain up in support of our freedoms..

Jeff

[gunsmoke2]

A few years ago while I was working for a store that sold StarPuke , They (starpuke) offered a trade in program for US sat systems…To my surprise we had a lot of people trading in Dish and DTV systems


That was a few years ago and they ran it so long. I personally think those that wanted to trade did so and the vast majority who did not will IMHO not but expressPuke now.


Will see when they announce their new subscriber count which probably doesn't include deactivations.


Most of the trade ins came right back to Canada and were resold. I bought about 1,500 and I know others bought much more higher quantities then me.



GS2

[StarVu]

Believe me GS2 , I hope I'm wrong and I hope Canadians wise up and start cancelling thier subbs to Star and Express. I also am of the opinion that in the near future you will only see one Canadian sat service and I hopes it's Starcrap.

[T Hell]

I'm sort of curious here.
1)If BCE is not making any money on their sat and internet interests. Then why are they being sued by their shareholders for cooking the books to hide profits? Or that is what I read a few weeks back in the paper. Did I missunderstand?

2)Bill Gates and crew have been found to be holding an unreported slush fund of 64 billion US. This is in excess of the allowed amount by the securities and exchange. This money should be turned over to the shareholders. This money is used for what is normal with monopolies. Buying influence. God that amount as pointed out can buy all the airlines in the USA or a small northern country. At the same time Gates claims that pirating his software is costing him to lose billions and that is why windows costs so much. Hmmm.. perhaps the slush fund is why it costs so much.

3) The above two relate because it is my understanding that BCE is using the same book keeping methods in it's reporting to it's shareholders. This is why the shareholders are so upset and are sueing.

Did I misread in a national newspaper these two seperate events, and mistakingly attach meaning to what are completely different situations?

===============================================
I want freedom of choice and my local politician doesn't seem to understand why the Canadian choices aren't adequate for my needs. His comment is along the lines of 'there really isn't that much difference' (meaning US and Can sat programming). He just doesn't get that it is about freedom of choice. He seems to think, freedom of choice is between Bell, Star and cable.
That is the illusion of choice.!!!

If most politico's think this way and a majority of Canadians as well. Then we are doomed to be forever controlled more and more on what we see and hear.

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"I'm scared mommy! ... Help me mommy!"
"There, there" said the matron of child welfair, "You have us to look after you. We will protect you. I'll get father La'Pedo for you"
------------

It always chilling, when somebody in power feels they are in a better position to decide what is right and best for me.