Transponder Unlocked problem

[Slam_mm]

I have a Sony dual LNB system with a B3 on one LNB and a B50 on the other. The problem is the B3 has freezing and black screens on certain channels. The culprit is apparent when you view the transponders. All the odd transponders signals are flucuating between 83 locked and zero unlocked every couple seconds.

My B50 on the other LNB doesn't have the problem.

I have read everything the search engines could find and I've tried them all:

- I swapped the IRDs and the B50 (now on the B3's LNB) starts bouncing from locked to unlocked.

- I replaced the coax with some good quad shield. I swapped the LNB with a brand new one.

- I bypassed the grounding block. I replaced the connector in my wall plate.

- I leveled my dish mast and re-pointed the dish.


All this started happening when I went from a single LNB to a dual LNB. Before that everything was fine.

I'm starting to lose my mind. I've been on my roof about 15 times trying to fix this stupid thing.

Please help!

[Mechanic]

Have you tried putting the single LNB back on that dish? You may have gotten a defective LNB, or the connection to it may be a problem. Be sure the coax center lead is long enough that it is making good connection at the new LNB. For testing it's best to run a coax directly from the LNB to the IRD with NOTHING in between, such as ground block or wall connector.
Good luck.

[Slam_mm]

Thanks for the reply mechanic.

I've replaced the dual LNB with a brand new identical LNB. It still bounces to zero on the odd transponders. I sold my old single LNB but I'm willing to try anything.

I have not tried the direct connect (though I have replaced every cable and component in between) and will try that tonight.

Here's one more weird thing that I forgot to add in my first post: After I replaced the cable and subsequently replaced the LNB the signal stayed locked for about twelve hours each time before it started bouncing to zero again. When it was working, however, the odd transponders were less stable than the even. i.e. it bounced from 79 to 83 but remained locked while the even ones remained pretty solid on their signal strength number.

I'm really at a loss here. Like I said I'm ready to do anything. If it means going 100% RCA components, it would be worth it to me. The only equipment that I've read about doing this are Sonys.

Slam

[Slam_mm]

OK. I've run my brand new quad shield directly from the dish through the window and to the receiver and the signal instantly started bouncing from 83 to 0. The IRD on the other LNB still works fine.

I also attached a friend's B50 to the "bouncing" signal LNB coax and it too had the same problem.

Anyone? Help. I've done everything I can think of. THis is a nightmare.

[Mechanic]

Do you have another LNB that you can install? It sounds to me like the new LNB may be defective.
Good luck.

[Slam_mm]

Hey mechanic, thanks for the reply again.

I would love it if it were the LNB.

Here's the deal: I had a single LNB and replaced it with a dual. That's when the problem started. Last week I borrowed a brand new dual LNB and it worked for about 12 hours and now... the same problem. I have a new RCA dish/dual LNB I'm about to install for a friend. If the mast diameter is compatible I'll swap out the dishes and LNBs to test too.

[Mechanic]

Have you tried re-aiming the dish, you may have moved it when you installed the LNB. The orbit of the satellite is not consistent, the signal will be stronger at one time of the day than others. You don't have any tree limbs in line of site of the dish, do you? Hang in there you will get it going.
Good luck.

[Slam_mm]

Mechanic,
Yes, I re-aimed my dish after replacing the cable. I must admit that my aiming technique was a bit archaic. I had the wife in the house relaying the signal to my 6 year old daughter who shouted it to me on the roof. Half the time I was yelling , "WHAT?". I have a signal finder, but I prefer the on screen numbers to get the highest possible reading. I think I might bring up the baby monitor next time so I can hear my wife directly.

The mast of the antenna wasn't level so I was sure that I had found the problem. After leveling it and repointing the dish it was, unfortunately, no better. There are some big elm trees about 100 yards away and, I think, slightly low of my 38 degree setting. Also, why just the odd transponders if it's trees? Why does my upstairs IRD have zero problems with any transponder?

It's hard for me to believe that I would get two defective Sony dual LNBs in a row. I'm going to try to fit an RCA dish (and LNB) on the Sony mast tomorrow. It looks to me, though, that the RCA mast is thicker than I remember the Sony to be. If anyone knows either way please let me know. You'd save me another trip on the roof.

[Mechanic]

I would think that the tree limbs would have the same effect on both odd and even transponders. Are you running the upstairs IRD off of the same dish/LNB? If you are, try switching the coax at the LNB, if its on a different dish, the dish location may be an issue. Some that have systems in the fringe area report that they can only get even transponders, which would lead me to believe that the odds may be weaker in signal strength and that, plus a tree limb could be a problem. Let us know when you locate the problem.
Good luck.

[gds]

I am not familiar with the sony systems you are referring to but I doubt that it has anything to do with the receivers as you have the same problem with your friend's receiver and the problem is isolated to the one cable run. However, consider the following options. I have installed a number of systems for friends in fringe areas and have experienced some of the symptoms you are referring to.

In fringe areas, the signal can be strong for several hours and then start acting up. Usually it will be at the same time of the day. Also, it is not unusual for there to be a difference in signal strength between even and odd transponders.

If the signal is being lost on the longer cable run, you may try a 20db in-line amplifier from Radio Shack. The weird thing is that one of your receivers in not affected. Given all of the switching combinations you have tried the only explanation seems to be that the one receiver for whatever reason is able to lock with a lower signal strenth. Make sure that the dish mast is plumb at 90 front and side. This is critical in weak signal areas. If the LNB is working the signal strength should be the same from both LNBs.

Is your system a dual LNB or two separate LNBs on a dual or multi feed arm or head? If the latter, I would strongly suspect an alignment/loose problem on the mount for the pesky LNB. YOur work in replacing the LNB could have been the timing of creation of the problem.

My first impression is that the trees may be the problem. Did you notice that the signal strength dropped AFTER the leaves on the trees started to come out? If so, try repositioning the dish to a location where you get a clearer shot at the bird without interference.

If you have eliminated all of the above, likely culprit is dish size. Both DTV and Dishnetwork have been putting up new birds that have altered the signal footprint and the signal strength somewhat. Both have put up satellites within the last two months that have had a significant implact in fringe area reception. In my case, over time, I have gone from a 24" dish (4 years) to a 30" dish (two years) to a 48" dish (four weeks). The latter size did not fix my problem totally. I guess I need a 72" dish -- any larger and I can start my own cable company. In my case, with a 30" dish I can get most transponders during the day, 3 at night. With the 48" dish all transponders are strong during the day; 3 EVEN transponders fluctuate between locked and unlocked 1 - 3 hours at night depending on the transponder (sound familiar). Bear in mind that with the receivers, once the signal stength falls below a certain level, you will get a 0 reading notwithstanding that the signal strenth at the LNB may actually be higher.

If the dish size is the problem, the good news is that whatever problems you have with the trees will likely also disappear with the bigger dish.

One last point. You can get a much better aim with a signal meter. I have an digital meter that is great (but somewhat pricey). Problem is that a receiver samples the signal once every two seconds, I am told. Makes aiming difficult in weak signal situations. A good meter samples the signal several times a second. I have a dish on my r.v and used to experience some of your frustrations in aiming through trees, etc. Meter has made the task easier.

Good luck.

[Slam_mm]

gds,

First let me say thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I'll try to address all of your questions.

I'm not in a fringe area. I'm in the northern US...oh what the hell I'm in Minneapolis. I have setup several (18 inch) systems for friends in my area over the last year and no one that I've ever setup has this problem.

You are correct. This problem is limited to one cable run. However the cable run lengths are close to identicle (about 50 feet each).

It is a single Sony 18 inch dish with a dual LNB.

The mast was not plumb. A couple years ago I had a new roof put on. When the roofer re-installed the dish it wasn't plumb. The thing is, I plumbed it up a couple weeks ago and it's still doing the unlocked thing.

I've swapped the cables on the dual LNB and the downstairs run still does the unlocked thing and the upstairs run is fine. Wouldn't that eliminate trees as a cause? I did not notice the problem getting any worse from winter to spring when the leaves came out.

I've read here on PD that there is something about voltage / polarity in dual LNBs that differs from single LNBs (My old single LNB worked for this cable run). And that the voltage/ polarity is different between the two LNBs. This is a long shot but one difference between my working upstairs run and my downstairs run is the upstairs outlet has a three holed grounded outlet and my downstairs outlet does not, it's an old house. I have a power strip with a three promg adapter on it (not grounded) and everything, my TV, recevier, VCR, emulator PC, is plugged into that power strip. It would be easy enough to run an extension cord from a grounded outlet. I know this is shows my ignorance about this sort of thing but hey, I'm desparate.

[Slam_mm]

gds,

where do you get a digital satellite finder and how much are they? I've got an analog one and I prefer the setup menu to it.

[gds]

Good grief, don't we have the makings of a mystery novel!

O.K., from what I have read you have slowly elimated all of the variables - new cable, switching runs, etc, with the same result. The voltage/polarity differences are a new one on me, but I notice that on my system there is a significant signal difference between two receivers on a dual LNB system, albeit the cable run to one receiver is about 25 feet more, which is not a biggie as I am using low loss R59 cable.

I doubt that the grounded outlet makes any diffference, but what the heck, try a grounded extension court to have the issue resovled. Could be a quirk of Sony receivers.

I am assuming that your existing dish is not damaged, kinked or has paint removed from the surface. If it does, this could be the problem as the dual LNB will aim slighly differently on the parabola of the dish. I would think that on a small dish this could be a major problem. If any paint is missing, spray with a grey primer. I have used this and it works great. No gloss paints - they don't work. By the way, has the surface of the dish worn to a gloss finish? Note the cure.

Borrow a friend's dual LNB and try it on your system. Can not yet rule out that you got two dud LNB'S. Rule this question out with one that is known to work well on an 18" dish.

If the test LNB works, from what you have said I would now give odds that a bigger dish will cure the problem - and given your experience two dishes with single LNB's may also be a solution. I would opt for the bigger dish as that would also help with rain fade. An upgrade from 18" to 24" is a cheap upgrade with significant improvement in signal strength. My guess is that this would compensate for any voltage/polarity issues as you would be increasing the signal strength to the receiver in Minnesota significantly. You could use the same mast. Borrow a friends and try or just buy the thing. From what you have spent so far the additional $20 to $30 is no big deal (which is the direction I would go after eliminating the LNB decisively).

I believe I am now tapped out of ideas. Good Luck! Can't wait to have you tell me the problem is cured.

[gds]

One more thing, you do not have to use the Sony dish with your system. Also I am wrong in my prevous reply as I am aware that the Sony dish uses a mast slightly smaller than other manufacturers. My apologies, getting older, forgetful, etc. Did a quick search and found the digital finder I use at www.starlink-dss.com/signal_meter.htm. Looks like a place in Oklahoma. Look at the DigiSat II. At least you will know what it looks like and can find a local supplier.

[gds]

O.K. one more thought, can not shut me up when I am on a roll. Try a borrowed 18" dish other than Sony. If the problem goes away, given that your other installs seem to work, dance on the Sony dish and give it a dignified death. Then go with the 24 inch dish as a replacement. One extra size is well worth the money in almost all applications.

[Slam_mm]

gds,

Thanks again for your replies.

Any idea where I buy a 24" dish?

So the Sony mast IS smaller in diameter than an RCA one? Damn, I thought it looked smaller. The question is, can I still use it if I swap to a RCA dish for a test? Or can I put an RCA mast in my Sony bracket? I do not want to take the bracket off the roof. It's been caulked down pretty well.

I missed an opportunity last weekend. I had a friends new RCA dish at my house. I was going to test it on my roof but I didn't get a chance before I installed it on his house. Of course, both LNBs work perfectly for him.

Wow that digital signal finder is too rich for my blood ($599). You are serious about this stuff. I apprcieate your expert advice. I'm going to start searching for a 24" dish that will work with an RCA LNB that will hopefully fit on a Sony mast.

[gds]

Go back to the link that I noted and scroll down the page. The digisat II is $89 and the one with the built in battery pack (which you won't need) is $129. As for the dish, on the web page there is a "home" designation which then takes you to the retailers home page. Type "dish" in the search box and it will take you to another page. Click on the first item. The 24" dish is $59. You should however be able to find a local supplier. I just did a fast search and got this particular Oklahoma retailer. You can probably search for one in your area - or try the yellow pages under "satellites".

You have got to replace the mast to ensure a tight fit. I sense you have worn out your hospitality by visiting your shingles. However, for the purposes of a test, wrap several lengths of black tape evenly around the mast and mount the test dish. If it works, replace the mast - you may be able to bend the bracket just enough to fit the new mast. I am not sure, but I beleive the difference in the mast diameters is 1/4 to 3/8 inches.

Let me know how you make out.

[azjoe]

Slam... I've just re-read this entire thread a couple times to make sure I understand what the symptoms are and what's been done so far, etc. Here's my $.02... if you're getting signal levels in the 80's it doesn't sound to me like you need a bigger dish for this particular problem (rain fade might be a a different story). You've swapped the lnb, so that's unlikly the problem. The problem doesn't follow the ird when you swapped them. That leaves it to be either a coax problem or a power/ground loop problem... and you've seemingly eliminated all of the coax issues, so that leaves power. Most modern electronic equipment expects to be grounded via the wall plug. You mentioned an old house, a mix of grounded/ungrounded outlets, etc. I've seen some pretty strange things over the years relating to grounding, floating neutrals, etc. BTW, just because you have a 3-hole outlet doesn't mean it's grounded... I've seen lots of older houses wired without a ground wire run to the outlet boxes so there's nothing to ground to when you install a modern outlet. All that's against code now, but the older houses are usually grandfathered to the old code.

Anyway, some tests you might try... do one at a time:
-- try disconnecting the coax at the good ird when you are experiencing the problem on the other ird. (checks for ground loop between irds via lnbs.)
-- plug both irds into the same (hopefully grounded) outlet... borrow extension cords from friends if you need to. (checks for ground loop/power problems via house wiring)
-- regarding power... you have a reasonable amount of stuff plugged into your power strip. What you don't know is how much other stuff is on the same circuit (ie, the same fuse/breaker). Try plugging the failing ird into a different outlet that you know is on a different fuse/breaker... again, use extension cords as needed.

Lastly, an FYI unrelated to your problem but maybe of concern to you: Is the power strip you mentioned a surge protector? If so, and you don't have it plugged into a grounded outlet, the surge protection is minimal to non-existent. Most surge protectors in these strips rely on the ground connection to dissipate any surge energy.

[gds]

Just remembered that I got a catalogue from Skyvision from Fergus Falls, MN. Their website is www.skyvision.com. A 24" dish is $59 and their "Trio II" aimer (looks like a Digisat II) is $119.95. Phone number is 1-800-500-9275.

[Slam_mm]

-- try disconnecting the coax at the good ird when you are experiencing the problem on the other ird. (checks for ground loop between irds via lnbs.)
-- plug both irds into the same (hopefully grounded) outlet... borrow extension cords from friends if you need to. (checks for ground loop/power problems via house wiring)
-- regarding power... you have a reasonable amount of stuff plugged into your power strip. What you don't know is how much other stuff is on the same circuit (ie, the same fuse/breaker). Try plugging the failing ird into a different outlet that you know is on a different fuse/breaker... again, use extension cords as needed.


I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I have been posting on various boards and USENET on and off for a year trying to solve this. I've replaced or swapped EVERY piece of hardware on the bad LNB run (replaced the coax twice), I re-aimed my dish, and been on my much too steep roof countless times and you've FINALLY found the problem.

Test #1 I disconnected the cable on the working IRD and went downstairs to the bad LNB and YES!!!...the jumping signal meter was a steady 83!!!! I went to the good LNB and reconnected it and the jumping started again. I repeated the test several times.... this is it.

Test #2 plugged both IRDs into the same outlet (my upstairs good IRD's outlet not necessarily grounded). No change.
Test #3 plugged bad IRD into known grounded outlet on different circuit. No change. This outlet is on a 100% modern circuit on an old house. I had it wired by an electrician a couple years ago.

Another note: I was wrong about the bad IRD's electical outlet not being a three prong. It is a three prong. There are no ground wires in my outlets, I installed three prong outlets throughout most of the house. The house was built in 1940.

OK so now that I know I have a ground loop between irds via lnbs, how do I fix it?

A HUGE thanks from a very humble person,

Slam

[gds]

My hat is off to azjoe. I know of some of the problems with ground loops, but obviously azjoe has a solid knowledge of the problems it can create. The one combination you have not tried is grounding the "good" lnb receiver. You have indicated that this one is not grounded at the outlet. Try with a three wire entension cord to a separate outlet that is known to be grounded and on a circuit separate from the other receiver. If this cures the problem, run a ground wire from the outlet box (tie the ground wire to the receptacle). If you cannot make it to the grounded electrical panel, run a ground wire to a copper water pipe and ground it there. Hope this helps.

[gds]

One more thing, the key is that both IRD's are on separate grounded circuits. Can not get this as being one of the tests you performed. I am also assuming that at this point, with the work done by the electrician a couple of years again, the electrical panel is also grounded. If all works, this would eliminate an internal IRD grounding. I have had problems with ground where an internal grounding strap is not attached/broke/etc. to the metal chassis.

P.S. You sounded upbeat on your last post. Looks good on you!

[Slam_mm]

gds and azjoe,

I ran a three prong ext. cord from the good IRD to the "modern circuit" with no change in the jumping signal on the bad IRD. The plugs for the IRDs are only standard two prong plugs. I'm no expert with electricity. I suppose that's apparent by now.

The circuit box in my house is relatively new and is grounded. I know this because by satellite grounding block uses the same grounding stake.

Hopefully we can fix this since we know what the problem is...

Thanks to all who've helped me,

Slam

[Slam_mm]

Another thought. My upstairs cable to the good IRD does not run through a grounding block. I could attach a grounding block to my cast iron waste pipe (which vents through the roof and goes all the way down to the ground under the basement) in the attic and solder the grounding wire to the pipe... would that work? Does cast iron conduct? Would the lack of a ground on this coax from the LNB be the cause of my ground loop?

[azjoe]

Slam,
Well, thanks for the kudos guys, but I'm far from an expert... just a lucky guesser. Also, sorry I was absent from the PD yesterday; the A/C went out on my car (it's >110F where I live) so priorities (by necessity) distracted me. Anyway, great that we've sorta proven there's a power/ground problem.

The plugs for the IRDs are only standard two prong plugs.

Well, that's interesting!! I checked my two irds (both Hughes)... the 2nd gen is a 3-prong, the 5th-gen is a 2-prong polarized (one prong wider than the other). Are your 2-prong plugs polarized? If yes, did someone by chance cut the wide one down to fit into an old-style outlet.

Anyway, I'm a little confused re: all of your tests... try plugging both irds into the same grounded outlet box ("modern") at the same. Use 3-prong extensions as needed... consistent polarity is important. I.e., when you're plugging a 2-prong into a 3-prong outlet, if the wider terminal of any plugs were "cut down", make sure they're plugged into the wider side of the outlet. If you're using "home-built" extension cords, make sure they're wired correctly (the white wire should always go to the wide side).

Does that fix the problem? If this doesn't fix the problem (which implies the problem is probably not a loop via your house wiring and must be something else) then provide info on the make/model numbers of the dual lnb and any other items (except grounding blocks) you have inserted in the coaxes between the irds and lnb.

Regarding your question about the upstairs coax not running thru a grounding block... should have no effect on your problem. The grounding block's purpose is to shunt high voltage surges (from static discharges/lightening) to ground and (hopefully) protect your ird. You should install one when you get a chance, but it won't play any direct part in resolving the real problem you're trying to solve. There are clamps available to connect to the cast-iron pipe... if you have an electrician friend they should be able to tell you where to get one locally. BTW, ideally I try to install the ground block(s) at the point the coax enters the house. I usually use a 6-ga aluminum wire from the block(s) to a ground rod or metal water/sewer pipe, etc. I also ground the dish mast... again to a pipe/ground rod. My theory is that grounding the dish shunts some of the energy away... the ground blocks in the coax hopefully catch whatever remains. Lightening doesn't always follow the usual rules, so there's no sure-fire protection. While you never know when a surge will hit, some areas of the country are more prone than others... so if you're in a prone area, pay more attention to this need than if you're not.

[Slam_mm]

azjoe. Great to hear from you.

Yes, though both my IRD power cords are two prong, they both have one wider prong that hasn't been cut down.

I'm going to jump ahead a little bit. It's entirely possible that the polarity is wrong on the three prong outlet(s) that I installed years ago. So if attaching both IRDs to the electrician installed modern outlet works, my next task should be verifying the polarity on the two IRD outlets correct?

azjoe, will you be checking in this weekend?

slam

[azjoe]

Slam,
You are correct, if the test works then the next step is to check the polarity on the outlets. I'll make sure I check this thread a couple times each day over the weekend to keep abreast of your progress.

BTW, here's a good FAQ that might help with some of the more common wiring questions/chores...
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/preamble.html

Over the years I've owned a couple older houses... both had some "handyman" wiring. I found that I had to check it out completely from the breaker box clear to the outlet... people just didn't always pay attention to connecting white to white and black to black, and most didn't know which terminal of an outlet gets which color wire. Keep in mind that just because a circuit leaves the main panel right, and it's wired correctly at an outlet, doesn't mean that it isn't inverted somewhere in between... really common when 3-way and 4-way switches are involved. And, sometimes there are hidden junction boxes in walls (strictly against code most everywhere, but it was commonly done "in the old days"). None of this mattered much back in the 40's and 50's... almost everything worked inn spite of the "error". But modern electronic equipment often needs proper grounding.

[gds]

Easy way to check and test, is to wire an outlet box right at the panel, with the neutal (white wire) going to the small side of the receptacle and the black going to the wide spade. In turn the black wire will go directly to the fuse, the white to the neutral bar ( usually off the the side or top and where all of the other white wires are located) and the bare wire goes to the ground bar. This should only take 5 minutes to do. Then run 14 ga. estension cords to both receivers and try. If it works you can then check your wiring and run a fresh circuit if need be. I agree that there are some horrors in the walls of old hourses. Maintaing polarity with new appliances, etc. is very important. If it does not work, then we can look at a ground fault within one of the receivers or there could possibly be other forms of "leakage". I am off for the weekend. Will check on Sunday night.

[gds]

One more thing, at the receptacle wire the bare wire to the green spade on the receptacle or on the grtound screw on the box. Sorry to be so detailed on the instructions, but I do not know how extensive your knowledge is on electrical matters. Seriously consider a new direct lead to both receivers if the problem is cured and access is nto difficult. Other wise you have to check the entire ciruit to see if there are any polarity reversals, etc in the circuit change to the outlets you are using. I also agree that the grounding blcok will not solve the problem you are experiencing, but a good idea for future work when this problem solved. Check code in your area regarding hooking up to cast exhaust stack. Not allowed in my area - must be to ground rod or water main. Exhaust stacks usually don't go down that deep. Also, isnurance companies can get diffcult on claims originated from handyman non-code fixes.

[azjoe]

gds,
with the neutal (white wire) going to the small side of the receptacle and the black going to the wide spade
Ooops... don't you mean the other way around? I'm no electrician, but I'm pretty sure the wide plug should be connected to neutral (white). Most outlets and switches are coded to make it easy to remember... silver screw for white, brass screw for black, green for ground. Here's a ref. to confirm: http://www.kalglo.com/faulty.htm

Slam, gds' suggestion is a good one if there is any suspicion that the "modern" outlet might be wired incorrectly. Since it was wired by an electrician, lets hope they did it correctly.

BTW gds, I agree w/your comment re: the vent stack... guess I didn't read that very carefully and missed it was the vent. Good catch!

[gds]

azjoe. OOPS is right,guess I was in too much of a hurry to get out of the city to go to the lake. Slam, the white wire goes to the wide spade side of the receptacle and the black to the small. Also, the colour coding azjoe noted is also correct. If you have not yet gone though all of the stuff azjoe and I mentioned on our last posts, then I ask you humor me. Disconnect your satellite ground from the common grounding stake. Did this solve the problem? If not disconnect your one grounding block as well and see if this makes any difference. If not reconnect both and proceed with the other tests.

[gds]

Slam, looking forward to hearing from you on the results of my last post. If the problem gets solved with the ground disconnects, I will explain. Also, I note from another site a similar problem. As in your case the Sony receiver is the problem. Foound the site by accident and did not note the address (my apologies). If the problem is cured with the ground disconnects, do not go through the hassle of the other suggestions azjoe and I posted. It seems that your problem is being narrowed down. Looks like you do most of the posts in the early a.m. (I am on mountain daylight time). Look forward to your reply - between azjoe and myself I think we can narrow your problem down.

[Slam_mm]

OK I plugged both IRDs into the modern outlet recently wired by an electrician with no change. In fact, there are four new outlets in my house. Two are on dedicated circuits. I've tried this on both of those two with the same "no change" results. I am not keen on wiring at the fuse box. I would do it if I believed that every outlet I've tried (probably 5 by now) has a polarity problem. In my book, that would be too much of a coincidence. I don't rule it out completely but I'm a little chicken about wiring at the fuse box. If you insist it must be done I'll do it.

I have already disconnected the satellite grounding block out of the system and that didn't work either.

My dual LNB is from a SAT D3 dish (its the newer squared Sony dual LNB as opposed to the older rounded one with the built in sat finder). I can get the model number if it's necessary. The bad run has 60ft of quad shield connected to the grounding block, then 10 ft of RG6 connected to a wall plate then 3 feet of RG6 to the Sony B3 IRD. The good run is 50 ft of RG6 to wall plate to 10 ft RG6 to Sony B50 IRD.

This weekend my wife was vacuuming in the room with the bad run and when she turned the vacuum on the picture froze and eventually went black. Until she was done. Not sure if that means anything more than the vacuum is a power hog.

[gds]

While checking ut other sites yesterday, I accidentally came upon another posting by an individual who had a problem almost identical to yours. The receivers were Sony and the posting party did not have may favourable things to say. Unfortunately, I did not note the location of the post. Seems that you have satisfied yourself of the polarity of the two good circuits so the wiring of the test box is not likely to provide results, and you are obviously reluctant to mess with electricity. Frankly, the simple solution is to put up another dish. You would then isolate each of the receivers from the other and both would work (you have already proven this by disconnecting the coax at the "good" receiver). About thirty years ago when I was in the stereo business, we used to get the ocassional problem with "ground hum" when a wire was attached to the grounding pin of a high end component. It was usually an internal component problem or the result of feeback from other components through a common ground. My theory is that a similar problem may have the results you describe with your components. See if you can borrow two receivers from your friends from a different manufacturer. Start by replacing the "bad IRD" with a different receiver. If no difference, try replacing the other receiver. If no difference test using both borrowed test receivers. Get back to me with the results. We have still not eliminated the possibility that one or both of the receivers are adding to/creating this problem. What we do know is that if one is removed from the system through the coax, the problem disappears. Hang in there, between you, I and azjoe I think we are slowly getting down to an answer. The problem is that with electrical issues one has to keep eliminating the possibilities in a systematic fashion until you isolate the offending situation.

[Slam_mm]

gds,
let me say I truly appreciate the effort you and azjoe are giving to help me. Sorry about the wiring thing. I'm just not real keen on working at the fuse box. At least I can turn off a fuse when I'm working on a regular outlet.

All of my friends have Sony equipment. I do have a broken RCA IRD that get some channels. I'll try that out and get back to you. By the way all of my freinds have RCA dishes, and they work great. Maybe SOny stuff is more sensitive to "dirty" electrical current or something. I do have the oldest house of all my friends.

[azjoe]

Hi Slam... well, too bad powering both irds from a common outlet didn't work... once we knew they were 2-prong plugs I was afraid that was going to be the result, but it was worth the try. So, I think that pretty much absolves the power system as the culprit IMO. I think the vacuum cleaner incident is coincidental.

Thanks for the details you suppied on the coax configurations and lnb info. I don't know that we need the exact model number of the lnb... knowing it's a newer Song is enough. Given that new info, I went back and re-read the entire thread again looking for clues... man, you've tried so many things it's hard to keep them all straight in my mind. I'm sure it maskes your head hurt too! As gds said, "one has to keep eliminating the possibilities in a systematic fashion". Here's some things I noted and questions I wasn't sure of the answer... I suspect you've done most of them, but it doesn't cost much to ask just so we're sure

- It wasn't clear to me whether you tried a test where you bypassed the "good" coax by running one directly from the lnb thru a window to the good ird.

- It wasn't clear whether you had tried interchanging coaxes at the lnb to see if the problem moved to the other ird.

- You said "After I replaced the cable and subsequently replaced the LNB the signal stayed locked for about twelve hours each time before it started bouncing". This seems like a pretty big clue to me, but I'm not exactly sure what to do with it just yet since it implies so many possibilities. They range from the obvious one (you have a bad termination/crimp on one of the coaxes which eventually shorts out after a day/night thermal cycle) to the more bizzare (static buildup which takes about 12-hours). Does it often work for a while after you mess with the connectors/coaxes at the dish? Did you have any problems mounting the dual lnb that may have caused a grounding problem with the lnb (I know that's vague, but anything you can remember might help). I'm not familiar with Sony's dish/lnbs so we'll have to rely on others to chime in here if they notice anything unusual regarding lnb grounding/isolation.

Slam, I'm not asking you to do anything other than answer the questions posed above. We can evaluate tham and then devise some more shots in the dark... errr, I mean well thought out tests! ;)

The other thing that keeps nagging me is I vaguely remember reading a post 2-3 years ago which indicated that Sony dual lnbs had something tied together internally which other manufacturer's lnbs didn't... I know that's vague, and it may mean nothing, but it's driving me nuts. I think the post was here at the den, but I can't find it (some older posts were lost when the den moved to newer software/servers over the years)... but it could have been on dr7 or ID's forum, too? Anway, maybe someone else knows/remembers something unique about the Sony dual lnbs?

[Slam_mm]

I have not yet tried to bypass the "good" IRDs cable run. I assumed, albiet possibly incorrectly, that if it ain't broke...

I have swapped the cables at the LNB and the bad cable run continued to be the bad cable run.

As far as the signal being good 12 hours after cable/lnb replacement, I can pretty confidently guess that's about the time it took me to hook up the good IRD. My kids watch cartoons in the morning on the good IRD and I had no reason to hook it up before then. We now know that when the good IRD isn't hooked up the bad IRD works fine.

If my bracket that's on my roof actually fit an RCA mast I'd swap it in a second. I'm about ready to take gds's advice and build up the Sony mast with tape and put an RCA dish/lnb on it. Of course I would have to go out and buy one first.

Best regards,

slam

[gds]

Azjoe has asked some good questions. I too have read throught this entire post twice last night and again today. I almost need a map to keep track of it all. Frankly, it apears that your problem has become a challenge for the three of us to beat. Two additional important clues have surfaced from my reading.

Firstly, you indicated that both receivers worked for about 12 hours and then the problem started again. Did you use the waterproof sealed connectors outside or did you used the standard RG6 connectors. The waterproof ones are available at Radio Shack and have a rubber gasket at both ends and some dielectric compound in the middle. This is the only kind you should use outside. Any moisture trapped inside the connector or that can flow through the cable into the LNB will cause a ground short and give you a problem. If this thing worked for 12 hours, could be moisture trapped in LNB. I don't think static is an issue as it should discharge through the cable shield. As an aside, did you form a loop out of your LNB so that any moisture drips down and does not flow into the LNB, and did you also loop all external connections in the same manner. Further, I either put an additional rubber boot on all external connections or use additional shielding with standard automotive plastic wire wrap or shrink wrap.

Second clue, and perhaps most importantly (be still be hopeful beating heart), you have indicated that your friends with Sony receivers use an RCA dish and everything works fine. I believe that Sony uses LNBs different from other manufacturers that are specific to their dish mounts. They may have other differences that make them sensitive to your particular application, considering they use a two spade electric plug (my Dishnetwork RCA receivers use dual spade lug with no problem). As you have been good enough to mount dishes for a number of your friends, I assume they will return the favour by allowing you to test with one of their dishes complete with dual LNB for a couple of hours tonight. As the mast size is different, built up with black plastic electircal tape for test purposes. As you do not have ready access to two different receivers, lets first eliminate any potential issues with with sony/dish LNB. I am very much troubled by the fact that the new LNB initially worked and then quit. Also change the exterior connections to the water resistant one I have mentioned if you are not currently using the same. Ensure the connections are tight.

Sorry for the additional work, but I am reasonably confident (albeit apprehensive in saying this), that we are close to a solution.:cool:

[gds]

We must have been typing at the same time. My suggestion is to do the dish thing first. If problem not currently, do the by-pass wiring with the new dish still in place. Would not be the first time that there could be two problems. Good luck!

[Slam_mm]

The connections at the dish have the rubber boot on them. In addition I coat the coax connector with clear silicone grease to make it water proof. For the good upstairs run, it's the only connector outdoors. The downstairs run has another connection at the grounding block. Those I've coated liberally with silicone grease.

You probably didn't get a chance to read my reply to azjoe before you posted. But I'm pretty sure the 12 hours of no problems was due to the upstairs IRD not being plugged in.

I'm with you though on the dish. I think my next step is to put an RCA dish on the mast. I don't want to take down any of my friend's dishes. I'm going to find one on ebay and buy it. Hey I'll have an extra dish for the cabin then. :)

[gds]

Seems we were both typing at the same time twice in one day. checked at www.shyvision.com out of Fergus. 18" dish on sale for $35, 24" for $50. Both complete with hardware. I would still go for the 24 for the extra $15. Dual LNB is $70. With all the problems you have had, consider new components if you are buying and can afford.

[gds]

One more thing I just noticed on the thread in this section "Even & Odd Transponder Problem" by 98 Civic. Seem to mirror your issue. On the last post (forgot name of posting party), one small strand of wire from the coax touching the copper lead created the problem in a dual LNB addition. O.K., I think you have enough to work with for now. Good luck & let me know how it works out. Make sure that there is no silicone grease on the copper center. or inside the jacket along the grounding wrap.

[azjoe]

Slam,
Ha, bet you thought I'd lost interest in this puzzle, didn't you... not a chance! So, while you're waiting for that RCA dish to arrive from ebay :R

- Does matter whether your good ird is tuned to an odd or even transponder when the bad ird is malfunctioning? Ie, when the bad one is acting up, go to the good ird, enter dish setup (Menu/System/Antenna?) and see whether selecting an even or odd transponder makes any difference.

Also, did you install the connectors on the coax yourself or were they already connectorized when you got them. Lastly, did you use staples or the nailed clips on any of the coaxes to hold them in place?

[Slam_mm]

azjoe,

Thanks for hanging in there with me. I actually did order a new RCA dish from ebay yesterday $30 with dual LNB shipping included. I've got my fingers crossed that it will fix the problem but I'm skeptical.

Good questions all.

- I don't know if the upstairs IRD is on an odd or even transponder when the problem starts. So far in my testing, I have had 100% success with the plug/unplug coax test to stop and start the signal jumping. My assumption is that it doesn't matter but I will test it.

- My two lengths of upstairs coax had the connectors put on at the factory. I don't like putting those suckers on. A good hex crimper is $50 and a stripper is at least $5. Not worth it for my limited use (although with as much coax as I'm buying recently it's getting there).

- One (60 feet quad shield) of my three lengths of downstairs coax had the connectors put on by a guy at Home Depot with the good hex crimper and stripper. I watched him carefully. It looked good. The other two lengths are factory connectors.

- I stapled the two cables to my roof. My downstairs length of quad shield has nothing but high quality insulated staples (I bought a really good insulated staple gun when I first suspected this) and I'm sure that there are no coax punctures. I did use non insulated staples (made for coax cable) the first time I installed the good upstairs run. And since this cable has the ground wire attached it's generally too wide for these staples. There are some staples that punctured the casing between the coax and the grond wire but I'm pretty sure I didn't get to the first layer of shielding on the coax. The reason I've never replaced that upstairs cable is the upstairs IRD works fine. Now that I know they are inter-related maybe I should reconsider???

Slam

[gds]

Slam, we are both hanging in with you. Now that it is clear that the cable to the "good ird" was not replaced as part of your test, I strongly urge you to test this run with a new cable. Many things can corrupt a cable - small piece of shield on the connector grounding to the centre lead (despite anyone's effort to be careful in crimping), broken centre core wrap for any number of resons causing a slight or high resistance ground leak, a weak spot in the core that is providing current resistance, etc. I am not suggesting any of these may be your problem, but given everything else you have done we should rule out at lease one other possiblity. Short of not changing out the dish, this is about the only test you did not perform If it works, you will not have to do a new install of dish on your roof and you will still have a dish for the cabin. Good Luck - may there be good news by Friday! By the way, good buy on the dish and LNB.

[azjoe]

Thanks for the info Slam. Try the odd/even transponder test when you get a chance and post the results... it's an easy test and will confirm a theory I have been formulating.

BTW, re: the fact that the outer jacket on your "good" side coax has been broken by staples... unless you used burial grade (silicon filled) coax those openings are letting moisture enter which will eventually migrate to a connector and cause a corrosion problem. That may not yet be THE problem, but it will EVENTUALLY become one. (FYI - It's so easy to nick the outer jacket, no matter how careful one is, so I usually use the silicon filled UV rated coax outdoors. It's a little more expensive and, unfortunately, isn't commonly available at RatShack and HomeDepot... try a electrical supply store or satellite/cable tv shop. Also, I'd question the need for quad shield since you're runs are realtively short and the signal is digital)

Anyway, based on what's been tried so far, about all that's left is either
- a bad lnb (low probability since it was replaced once),
-a bad coax/connector in the good side (could be the ird->wall coax, the wall feedthru, or the wall->lnb coax), or
- a defect in an ird (also unlikely).

To avoid buying more coax just for testing, do you still have the coax you replaced with the quad shield on the downstairs system? If yes, is it known to be good? (you can test it by using it to connect between a wall plate and an ird.) If yes to both then you could try using it to direct connect between the good ird and the lnb the next time you're "on the roof". If this solves the problem, then you know what you have to do and there's no need to mount the ebay dish.

Note: sorry, I got interrupted while writing this and I see gds posted, so please excuse me covering some of the same items... looks like we're on the same wavelength, gds! :cool:

[smack]

Wow, interesting thread.....

In keeping with the "probably it's the power" direction of the thread, I suggest checking the case of both receivers against ground. Perhaps there is "something" touching on the inside of the receiver that is causing a power/ground loop through the case/coax shield.

If you have access to a volt meter, set it for the range of your input AC power (like 120AC), touch one of the probes to a bare metal part of the case, touch the other probe to some known-good ground. If there is some leaky component, there may be sparks, so be careful.

While you're at it, check the TVs (and/or VCRS/Tivo/whateveris connected to the receiver) too, since they are also on the common (should be) ground. Perhaps they are the cause of the loop/feedback circuit.

Good Luck

Scott

[Slam_mm]

Over the weekend I tried bypassing the upstairs cable run by attaching a brand new RG6 coax to the LNB and run it straight to the upstairs IRD... no luck, the signal was still bouncing on the downstairs IRD afterwards.

My RCA dish arrived yesterday. I'll give that a try soon.

smack, thanks for the suggestion. I don't have a voltmeter but I will borrow one for the test you suggest. Interestingly enough, my upstairs IRD has a homebuilt (by me) internal emu. Who knows. I may have caused a short. In my testing I have swapped my own IRDs and also used my friends IRDs on the bad downstairs run with no improvement in signal. The one constant, however, is that the IRD with the internal emu was always connected. You could be right.

slam

[azjoe]

Slam,
Hahaha... FWIW, the "theory I'm formulating" I mentioned a few posts back was that some fault had "developed" in your good ird... probably one that somehow is creating a ground loop-like fault. I didn't want to actually suggest in print that there might be a :K "modification" to your ird.

Whenever I troubleshoot, I always go for the obvious first... ie, what's different since it last worked, what have I changed, and what have I done that's "non standard"? 95% of the time the answer is there. That's why I originally discounted signal strength... you were in the 80's before and after you installed the dual lnb, so that probably wasn't it. You had done a good job of swapping/isolating optomized toward the "bad" side... so, I suggested looking at the good side because there wasn't much else left. The power/grounding of any dual system is complex since there are so many possible ways grounding can be affected... your situation is/was complicated by possible issues in your house wiring, so that's why we tried a few tests there.

So what's next? Well, Smack's test is well worth a try and easy to do. But if it shows nothing, you may still have a loop-like problem. Remember, the voltage difference between selecting an odd and even transponder is only a few volts and it doesn't take much of a fault to cause the ird to current limit the transponder selection voltage (that's why I suggested you to try the transponder test and only do the coax test if you happened to be on the roof already.) However, since we have new info (that there's something "nonstandard" in the "good" ird), perhaps now's the time to test that as a possibility. Ie, borrow a known good (unmodified) ird and try it in place of your "good" ird... certainly that's easier than visiting what has certainly become one of your favorite hangouts lately (no, I don't mean RatShack or HomeDepot, I mean you roof!).

Let us know how you make out.:)

[Slam_mm]

azjoe,

Like I've said before I've been chasing this gremlin for quite a while now. It's only been very recently (since you correctly suggested unplugging the coax on my GOOD IRD) that I've even considered the good IRD run a possible cause of the problem.

First thing I'm going to do is unplug my internal emu from the IRD since I made it connect with a simple RJ11 jack. If that doesn't fix it I'll borrow a friend's IRD.

[Slam_mm]

Unplugged my internal emu and plugged in a subbed card into my "good" upstairs IRD and BINGO!

Looks like I'm going to stay away from electronics projects. My sincere thanks to all of you. I feel absolutely stupid. The fact that it did not affect the IRD it was in was what really threw me off. I spent about $6 on this RG6MU internal emu. I bragged to my friends how I had made my own.

I must have spent $100 and more importantly 40 hours of my time over a year to solve this all for saving about $15 bucks on buying an emulator. It was kind of fun making it though.

Oh well live and learn.

Thank you all who helped me, especially azjoe and gds. smack got me back on track too.

Anyone need a new RCA dish?

slam

OK stop laughing at me now.

[azjoe]

Slam,
GREAT!!!! Glad you've got it resolved... and don't feel bad... we've all been there and done that! If I had a buck for every time I've "fixed" the wrong thing I'd be retired by now. Don't give up on electronics and messing around with this kind of stuff... learning, fixing, and trying new things is what makes it fun!!! :D

Now, when do we start installing that RCA dish at the cabin....:eek::eek: :eek:

[gds]

Well, CONGRATULATIONS! I took a much need vacation during the past week and have been out of touch. Good to hear all is well. My rule of thumb is to disconnect anything that is not OEM first. Best first guess is to eliminate anything one does to change the original configuration. In any event, don't beat yourself up on this one. As azjoe said, we have all been there. Enjoy your July 4th holiday with both sets working.

[Slam_mm]

It pains me to write this...but last night my signal strength started "bouncing" again on the odd transponders on my downstairs IRD. This with the internal emu gone upstairs. I did some testing and the only time it will "bounce" is when the upstairs (the old "good" IRD) is tuned to a channel using an even transponder.

I unplugged the receiver for ten seconds. I removed the new emulator... the signal still bounced on the downstairs IRD when I was tuned to an even transponder on the upstairs... NO card! I put a subbed P4 in the upstairs IRD (again after unplugging the IRD for ten seconds) and it still caused the downstairs IRD signal to bounce on odd transponders.

When I'm tuned to an odd transponder upstairs it stopped the symptoms downstairs. I'm losing it guys.

[azjoe]

:eek: :eek: :eek: [ex·or·cise; transitive verb; to expel (an evil spirit) by adjuration; to get rid of (something troublesome, menacing, or oppressive); to free of an evil spirit]...

Slam... so, ANYTIME you set the downstairs ird on an odd transponder channel and the upstairs on an even transponder channel you have the problem? Is that ALWAYS true? Does it fail in any of the other states (up=even/dwn=even, u=o/d=e, and u=o/d=o)?

[gds]

Need some more information on the possible combinations. We know that if "good" IRD is on even transponder then other IRD is wacked on odd transponder. What happens if "good" IRD is on odd transponder. Have you tried a test with the new dish and dual LNB? Does disconnecting the coax on the "good" IRD solve the problem? Does reversing the IRD locations and running through the combinations again change any of the results? Get back to me on this. Sounds like a ground fault but trying to find it is getting frustrating.

Lastly, you can cure your problem by just putting up two dishes, as previously stated, given that you would be isolating the circuits. Before you do this however, see if the results are different with the new dish. Depends on your patience and the creativity that azjoe and I can bring to the table.

[Slam_mm]

I haven't been able to do comprehensive testing yet. I still won't be able to get to it tonight. Friday evening will be my first chance.

Yes, when I unplug the coax on the good IRD all transponders/channels work on the bad ird. Also, In my past testing all channels worked fine on the bad IRD when the good IRD was on an odd transponder.

No I haven't installed the new dish yet. I think 2 dishes is out of the question. The wife would kill me.

I'm also keen on replacing the good IRD in a test. After all it has been modified. At present I don't have an extra IRD for testing.

[gds]

Away from tonight to Sunday afternoon. Will check back then. Good luck.

[azjoe]

Slam,
I think the ird replacement test is worth a try... if replacing the good (upstairs) ird doesn't fix the problem, try replacing the downstairs one instead. If this doesn't fix it, then the next tests will require you to have a multimeter (ie, voltmeter)... I recall you said you didn't have one, so work on borrowing one or pick up a $10 one from ratshack when you get a chance.

[yarddon]

I must confess this thread has been very intereting.
I am curious to know what the odd even transponder tests would prove.
Keep this alive guys.

[azjoe]

Hi Yarddon,
When you step back and look at this problem from a distance, you'll see that testing has either replaced or bypass/substituted the dual lnb, the coaxes between the lnb and irds, and the ground block in one of the coaxes (the other coax doesn't have a ground block). Interchanging the irds did not help, nor did powering the irds from a common power source which likely has eliminated ground loop via AC power as a possibility.

So what's left... well, it seems to me either a ground loop via the lnb, a defective ird or multiple faults (so far, we've been doing single-fault isolation techniques). I try to keep in perspective the adage "hobbyists have time, professionals have tools", and the fact that not everyone is comfortable/capable of performing some tests due to fears or physical limitations (eg, you could get my brother to do cartwheels on a roof (ex-paratrooper), but you’d never get him to go near an AC panel due to fear of electricity). Since Slam is a hobbyist (like most of us) I assume he doesn't have spare irds and lnbs lying around, nor multimeters, signal meters, and rolls of spare coax. Thus, most of the tests I've proposed have attempted to check things out using what he has (or can, hopefully, easily borrow from friends/neighbors). I guess this results in some non-obvious tests and seems like the "long-way-around" to many... but if he doesn't have the equipment/resources, suggesting he perform a test with equipment he doesn't have or know how to use would seem to be less than productive.

Anyway Yarddon, to finally get to your question... the more recent testing has pointed more toward a defective ird, but it's still not certain in my mind which one is defective. The lnb polarization is controlled by the ird applying a DC-voltage between the coax shield and the center conductor... approximately 13-volts for even transponders and 18-volts for odd. In some combinations, one appears to be affecting the other... hence, the question about testing all combinations, which I hoped would lead to implicating one ird over the other.

At the irds, the grounds are common via chassis ground and (I assume) the AC-neutral... that's why earlier in the thread we were focusing on the ac-outlets and the "white-wire" (btw, AC power won't be fully absolved until the tests smack suggested are run). Honestly, I'm not sure how the grounds are handled at the dual lnb (I haven't been able to find a schematic of one on the net and mine is not in a place where I can easily test it). So, I've been assuming the grounds are common there as well... I recognizing this violates all single-point ground theory, but my instincts tell me that's more likely the way they do it... I could be wrong!. (BTW, if anyone can test this it would help... ie, on a dual lnb, if you connected an ohmmeter between the threaded portion of each connector does it show they are shorted together?).

In any case, my current hypothesis is that one of the irds has a fault whereby the transponder select voltage is floating or not properly referenced to chassis (hence coax) ground somehow... thus what happens in one ird affects the other ird by causing a level shift (as opposed to, I guess, ground-loop current if the fault didn't exist). Swapping the ird is the fastest way to prove/eliminate this hypothesis. If swapping the ird doesn’t fix the problem, then I can only conclude either one of the earlier tests gave false results, the second lnb is faulty, or there is more than one fault.... thus, perhaps, it's fortunate we hobbyists have time... ;) :gg

[yarddon]

Wow !!!,
That was a lot but I got the gist of it. I have a dish 500 2 dual lnb so I could run that test for you.
I have an interesting problem and was hoping there may be a logical explanation.
I have a JVC IRD on a leg which is about 100ft and I seem to be unable to pick up even number transponders i.e. I am only receiving even number transponders.
The other IRD receives all channels. When I select the setup options and view configuration I am only seeing 119 and the word odd below, I am assuming that has something to do with my inability to get even number transponders. I am also curious to know what could cause this, I have not checked to see if there is a relationship between the other IRD and JVC one.
any insights would be appreciated.
YD
p.s. I have been unable to adjust my dish so I can see both 119 and 110 satelite at the same time, any insights in what I am doing wrong.

[kprinkki]

Slam_mm,
I sympathize with your situation. I took had the same problem in my house. I had one in our upstairs bedroom that would only receive the odd transponders and some of the channels would not come in, but I could get guide data on them. I troubleshot this problem for 3 years trying different receivers, wiring, polarity, multiswitch with booster, switching dishes and lnbs (I have two dishes installed), on and on and on.... I finally gave up on it and told the wife that she just could not watch those channels. Then I updated to DirecTivos in the house. I ran new feeds from the sat dish, which was only 15 feet from the receiver instead of the 100 feet of run going in the house through the basement and up to the second story to the bedroom. My problem disappeared. I got to looking at the cable run, and low and behold, I had a bad cable connection (grounding touching coax) and it was loose (even though it was a factory crimp) and I was able to pull it right off. I put new end on it and retested before I took it out and my problem was gone! I had overlooked this one problem. I don't know if this info helps, but I really do feel your frustration.

[Slam_mm]

Just checking in. I haven't run the tests yet. I've been caught up in other projects around the house; i.e. staining my deck, replacing a garage door opener, etc. For some reason these things have been piling up while I've been on my roof. azjoe; you are the man. Hopefully I'll get some time this weekend. Thanks everyone for yourhelp and concern.

slam

[gds]

Slam, I read azjoe's latest post and agree. If the new dish/lnb does not cure the problem, it looks like one of the IRDs is the problem. You need to borrow a fiends IRD to track down the problem. If you require a confirmation of electical tests on the LNB by way of comparison, I will test one of mine and post results. Take a close look at the IRD you modified -- are the solder joints solid, any overage on the joints, are the solders solid - a cold solder can give you all kinds of weird results. Eliminate the LNB, then focus on eliminating a bad IRD. Although I have some electrical circuit knowledge, I cannot help you on an IRD electrical circuit problem - and it seems you are the same. If we get to the point we get to concede that a "hobbyists time" should yield to professionals tools to coin azjoe's philosophy. I must confess I only check from time to time in the interest of closure for your problem. Keep us posted.