Settle for buying a programmer

[dssslick]

Like many of you I have received the original first letter for buying a programmer. Since this is a standard programmer I have contacted the vultures and explained to them that I used the programmer in conjunction with Microsoft Smart Card development kit, which I do have. That was right when the letters were going out. They said OK and left it at that.
Last week I got a call from Yarmuth again, this time asking me if I wanted to settle. They went as far as to agree with me that these devices are standard computer equipment and have many uses.
However, because it was manufactured by "Vector" the intent of the device was to be used in pirating their client's signal.
Also because I bought it from a website that sold pirating devices, I must've bought it for pirating. I told them to go F#$% themselves.
I don't know much about law but I can't see how an argument like this can stand up in court. According to their logic if I bought a pack of cigarettes from the crack dealer on the street it would make the act of buying and the cigarette pack itself illegal just because the crack dealer was selling illegal substance?? Total BS
I'm looking into getting a lawyer right now.

[morgana]

If everything you have said is the total extent of their evidence, then I do not think you have much to worry about. As you said you have Microsoft Smart card developer kit, and it is registered to you, that would more then show that you had a valid reason for buying the unit.

Now the biggest question is, did you contact Vector by e-mail or have any e-mail contact with them. If so, many of these dealers always kept all their e-mails. If in any of these you wrote anything about using it for satellite, you will be hard pressed to win. Remember this is not criminal but civil. It only takes one story to be slightly more credible then the other to win.

My guess is they are only trying to scare you, and since you have given them a reasonable legal use for your purchase, I do not think they will pursue it too hard. But you are the one who has to make that call one way or another.

[dssslick]

Hmmm, looks like I have to go back to my archives and check all of my outgoing mail. Thx for pointing this out.

[zkt]

Another piece of circumstantial evidence that they might use is whether you had a sub prior to the alleged purchase and if so whether you cancelled it shortly after the alleged purchase.
Please keep us updated.

zkt

[dmattear]

seems dtv has played the sub issue from both sides. first it seemed that subs got a better deel in settlements. now seems subs helps them to hook you with pirating.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Dmattear,

I do NOT think that subs have EVER got a better deal at all and that is a false impression people have. In fact a SUB is VERY HARMFUL. Check out the info here that I posted in another thread and people who have NOT been sued CAN fix this. I think most of the lawyers would confirm that SUBS are more HARM than good, by far.

Many who would rather NOT post the name of their lawyer, are writing me at ttrk@legal-rights.org and offering their lawyers name. CO-OPERATION like this can be helpful to everyone INCLUDING the person sending it. The MORE the lawyers know about this and the more experience they have, the better.

Someone wrote me and there is a very important factor that I realize could be important So here is a post I made eleswhere that could be IMPORTANT TO YOU.

I have been getting a lot of E-Mail from people who have no DirecTV® system and are getting their accusatory love letters demanding money. Its VERY CLEAR to me that if you have no DirecTV® system today and /or if you have a Dish Network system (even with a RCA dish because you swapped) then it will be exceedingly difficult for them to be able to win in a court and prove that you stole their signal (in the PAST).

I have no objection at all for people who want to settle and this FACT should even be helpful for a settlement. On this Mr. Zakarian can help and is almost SURE to negotiate a better deal if you want to settle and buy peace or even if you did steal. Those people SHOULD settle since they cannot win in court.

If you discontinued your DirecTV® system some time ago and then later changed it for a Dish system, how can you be stealing DTV's signal. I would think that without an admission its VERY difficult to prove you stole something without their system. And they have no proof of you having sold anything because they have a simple invoice. If you don't have their system you would have to have assisted someone ELSE but how likely is that if YOU don't have their System?

Even if you bought a ISO-7816 Programmer or unlooper (they are virtually the same as to what they do) and you used it to read anything out of curiosity, that is NOT illegal. The ONLY use that is illegal and concerns the letter is if you use this unlooper or programmer to STEAL THE DirecTV® SIGNAL since they are sending the letters. If you have a DISH system or NO SYSTEM it will be almost impossible for them to prove that usage.

The people who are in the WORST POSITION are people who subscribe to DirecTV® so if you have not received this letter yet then you can take steps to make sure to PROTECT yourself that they can not win against you when this onerous letter comes. And it probably will.

There is no problem with having a DISH NETWORK system but it can go a long way toward circumstantially proving that you could NOT steal the DirecTV® signal. And remember all they have is an invoice which IS totally circumstantial evidence, NOT proof of any wrongdoing.

People can NOT undo having bought something from a DSS vendor if they did, but there is a LOT they can do to prepare for the inevitable day when the letter comes. Just because you now have a DISH system does not mean you did anything wrong with that. I highly DOUBT that DISH will EVER send out this type of threatening letter, they seem more confident in the function of their system and its just not their business style to hammer people this way without actually knowing if anyone is guilty.

So I imagine that most people who know they made a purchase have already taken steps to be sure they are in the right position whenever the letter comes. Unfortunately those who have already received the letter and who have a DirecTV® sub can not do much other than FIGHT this onerous thing if they did noting wrong. But those with a DISH system or NO SYSTEM will certainly be in a much BETTER position, than anyone who owns a DirecTV® system.

Isn't it amazing how this company is HARMING THEMSELVES by thanking their own customers for their business by this outrageous letter. I have been told by HUNDREDS that they are cancelling immediately. They seem like the Buddhist priests who "SELF IMMOLATE" since WHY would anyone want a DirecTV® system when it can cause you SO MUCH GRIEF. And anyone who has one or HAD one sure probably does NOT anymore, knowing this.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

Talk about committing suicide, geeezzzcchhhh!!!!

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[dmattear]

i am glad you hung in there and continue to find us sound legal information. per my lawyer i am sitting on my two letters. no contact at all with dtv. non-sub, bought an unlooper. i hoop we get some good news in the florida case. hale to the king.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Dmattear and everyone,

I had many requests from folks who purchased unloopers and apparently they are tougher on those than they are on programmers. But unfortunately, while these are effectively the SAME, most lawyers do not know that. So I posted some info on this in the hope that some will find it useful. This IS the actual case too:

http://www.legal-rights.org/DTV/unlooper.html

Also people should know that it HARMS you to be a SUB and in my opinion ANYONE who EVER bought from a DSS site should immediately CANCEL their SUB and either have NO SATELLITE or get a DISH NETWORK SYSTEM (FREE SWAP) and take your sub with that. This may play in your favor because you don't have a sub and it may just be nice if you only have a dish system. This may make it far more DIFFICULT to get a judgement since its hard to steal DirecTV® when you only have a DISH NETWORK system.

My understanding is you should KEEP the same DISH (nobody knows) and they will swap the receiver for free. Probably better TV too although I have neither anymore since the SCR here in Canada. They can shove it as I will watch my DVD movies now.

If all 100,000 people they are sending letter to canceled too, imaging how that would hurt. And then subbing to DISH, why that's a double whammy.

It sounds strange but by cancelling a sub you are not an active client and they seem to go easier on these. And if they all cancelled they may learn to treat customers a bit better with over 100,000 cancellations. The info can be seen here:

http://www.legal-rights.org/DTV/subharmful.html

And according to some of the lawyers who have made numerous settlements, NON-SUBS do better, it seemshttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif


Many of us and many of my friends had subs up until the SCR and then we all cancelled them. I will BET that their sub CHURN will be ultra high this quarter :)

ULTRA FLASH INFO!!! I have been advised by some of the lawyers that they ONLY have names and addresses in sme cases and NO IDEA what you bought. If they do NOT find out they cannot file suit against you so DO NOT tell them. If they bluff (which they do) and say you bought a bootstrap, DONT SAY A DAMN WORD. Lawyers wont and DONTYOU. THey are fishing and if they do not catch a fish and do not know what you bought they can hardly sue you if they do not know what you bought. It could have been a DirecTV® receiver which I do not think they want to call a pirate device.

But this is where people commit suicide and say NO I DIDN"T , I BOUGHT A PROGRAMMER. BINGO, now they have got YA!! DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING!!! PERIOD!!!
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[zardoz77]

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[mumblypeg]

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[zkt]

Although I dont know much about the flashes that we available on the unloopers it makes sense that this could be used to show intent. Hope that someone with more knowledge can pick this idea up and elaborate on it.

zkt

[morgana]

The programmers are usually pretty staright forward as to just what they are intended to do and usually have no frills added. Now the Loaders and unloopers while yes they can be used as programmers also have the ability to perform other specialized stuff. This is where the problem lies. If it had the atmel programmed it is kind of obvious the intent is not legal.

The ability to show that back at this time you also had programs like windows smart card, or others, and were also playing with them as well, will go a long way to show that you had other legal intentions. It all comes down to whether you can make your argument that tiny bit more compelling then DTV's argument. Remember this is civil and it only takes a slightly more believible story to win. If you win, I would suspect that it would not be hard to win costs against DTV, which then will make it so you have not lost so much money defending this. But if you lose the same can be said on DTV's behalf as well. If your case comes down to whether a loader is the same as a programmer, you had best make sure you have some electical engineers ready to testify this for you in court. They do not just take your word for it.

[mumblypeg]

.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi mumblypeg,

No I would not agree as there are several flaws here. Let me point them out.

Firstly look at what dssslick says in the first post and I know he is correct since I have seen it before.

However, because it was manufactured by "Vector" the intent of the device was to be used in pirating their client's signal.


This is an outrageous statement they USE because how can an inanimate object have intent. If anyone needs a programmer to develop a smart card I assure you the INTENT is with the USER and NOT the object and it does not matter if he buys it from Gem Plus or wal-mart, his intent is the same. How can they PROVE what his intent was???

Firstly all they have is invoices, nothing more. So they will have a hard enough time proving that

(1) you ordered it.

(2) you Received it.

(3) you paid for it.

(4) you EVER actually got it working and did not have a problem with a serial port conflict or had the time to use it.

(5) and now you want them to PROVE whether or not it had a FLASH on it when you received it, if you did.

I really don't think so.

But besides this who cares if it was flashed or not when you received it.

(6) Did you EVER even use it?.

(7) Was it flashed with that flash when you used it?

(8) Did you use it to steal their signal?

Unfortunately people give opinions that are not realistic in my opinion because who cares what ELSE a product will do if YOU don't use it to do that. If you use an unlooper as a programmable programmer, who cares if it can unloop but you don't do that.

Did you know the PC that you are using can calculate incredible statistics based on the number of people in Africa that had AIDS by age 9 and calculate how many Africans will have AIDS at age 9 in 2020. Did YOU ever do that with your PC?

Did you know that some people use their motorcycles to Jump snake canyon there fore motorcycles can jump snake canyon.

Did you ever use your motorcycle to do that?

All types of products today are multifunctional and can do many things. But that does NOT mean we HAVE to use them to do that. My portable CD player plays CDs, RCD's, RWCDs, MP3's and several other formats. I have NEVER used it for other than to play MP3's. So should I be ashamed of that. Did my player have an illegal intent before I bought it and does it have that intent now that I have only used it legally? KAKA!!

HOGWASH just like most of what I read above.

If you never intended to steal DirecTV® and never did that then I don't give a S H I T what a device can do, it never did that.

So an unlooper is no more illegal than any ISO-7816 programmer because it is a PROGRAMMABLE PROGRAMMER that anyone can make a flash for that will make it read any ISO-7816 smart card at all. Who cares that it can glitch and it can program Atmel chips too if YOU do not want to do that. And if it does not come with a flash does that mean that you cannot or will not apply one. And if you do and you program a ISO-7816 DSS card to steal DirecTV® then that flash less Unlooper was used illegally. But if you did not do that, then it was not use illegally, flashed or not. That has D I C K A L L to do with it.

Its time that people realized that they (DirecTV® )have a very hard line to hoe here. They have to prove a LOT and they do NOT have evidence of most of what they have to prove. In many cases they have an invoice and that is ALL they have, they do NOT have proof of delivery or proof of USE never mind proof of if it was fladshed or not.

And whats more these devices have NO capability to steal TV without something called a PROGRAM. One that TURNS ON DirecTV® cards.

What proof do they have that you have any such program. Do they see one on your computer by clearvoyance?? And if you DO have one DID YOU BUY IT? I highly doubt that so there is NO paperwork or paper trail like there is for the unlooper or programmer. So HOW would you like them to prove that necessary part of the equation? You NEED a program to steal TV and where will that PROOF come from??????


So to me, many of the folks above are leaping to conclusions that are WRONG and are NOT helpful at all.

MANY sold HU Programmers with a programmer flash but the MINUTE you add an UNLOOPER FLASH, guess what, it unloops too. So did you buy an programmer or an unlooper?? The flash business if totally nonsence.

Talk to a GOOD lawyer and go over these points with him.

The fact remains and its pretty damn simple. People who purchased something to STEAL TV should make a deal and pay the piper. Why? Because they cannot lie in court and say they did not steal, when they did.

But MANY, MANY of you did NOT do that. You did not steal any signal and nobody can prove that you did. When that is the case then how the HELL are you going to be convicted of something you DID NOT DO when nobody has any proof of all the necessary elements of the crime or supposed crime. And they are MANY as outlined above.

Sorry but I am tiring of this. The bottom line is that they really have no proof and people who do not have a DirecTV® system and have NO system or a DISH system (obvious circumstantial evidence that you DID NOT STEAL) or people who wont lie down and roll over should stand up for their rights. And to the folk who cannot afford to fight, then tell the lawyer that you DID NOT DO THIS but you cannot afford to fight and make a settlement offer with TERMS for 2 years and do not offer too much. They are extortionists and I am really feeling bad for those who have little choice but to pay them because of the high cost of litigation. It makes sense to make a deal for you who cannot afford to fight, but fight RIGHT DOWN to the LINE to make sure you do not pay much and get the best possible deal. That will come by putting them through an elaborate discovery process before any deals are discussed. If they think you are a tough nut to crack then they will much more readily made a deal at lower cost to you.

So I am tired about the CRAP of whether ATMELS were FLASHED or NOT, WHO the HELL knows that. Did they inspect your device? So please get real guys INTENT is in the USERS MIND, not the capability of the device. If that does things you do not need, SO WHAT. So does just about every other product you purchase.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

Did you know that 80% of all the CD drives out there can burn VCD's (Video CD's) and how many of you ever did that????/

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[peppermint]

Now could I person who has not gotten I letter yet just sub the max(platnum and even football package) just to show that you really are not stealing anything. By ordering a few ppv's here and there would it not go to help your case and turn the tables on d** themselves. I know I am going to get a letter but rather than run and hide. I am going to upgrade and make it look like I have no clue about the letters and also make it look like I am a loyal customer. Any thoughts??

[To The Real King!!]

The time that counts, if you have a DirecTV® system, is when you BOUGHT the product.

A sub only PROVES that you had the OPPORTUNITY to steal, not that you did not. I do not understand peoples thought process on what you say. What happened since you bought till NOW???

Unless of course you DID NOT have one and that is evidence that you could NOT steal. But I don't know if you do or do not have one. Do THEY?

Read this,:

http://www.legal-rights.org/DTV/subharmful.html

and try to understand what it says.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

What you are saying is that you want to show a DRASTIC change in your buying habits NOW, some 2 years AFTER you bought what they call a "theft' product AND advise them that you have their system and therefor could steal. That is REALLY BRILLIANT. Go directyly to jail, do not pass go.

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[morgana]

TTRK and I will have to agree to disagree on some of the fundementals about loaders verse programmers, but that is not to say that we can not agree on the end product. In this case it is DTV has to show damages, in the amont they are asking for. They can not just pull out a number and say we think you owe us this much, as if you watched everything we had on it would be this much money.

First off they would have to show you used the programmer to steal signals. That is hard to do unless you were really careless in your communications with the people who were raided, and even then it may still not be proveable.

Now, as for just what programs you watched and for how long before it was ECMed, and of course did you just give up, or did you continue. Just how will they be able to prove all these. The one thing that has been pointed out in this is if you are a subscriber, they know that you still were running. If you never bought a PPV, they may inferr that means you were pirating them, but infer does not prove things, just clouds the waters a bit.

Just where will they be able to prove any of the damages they seek, is the biggest question. If they can prove that due to your past errors, then what is the damage to them? I can not say what they will settle for but a lawyer will be able to ask the right questions in all this, so he is a vidal part of your defence to the suit.

I am not sure if they have any rights to punitive damages, and again that may or may not be affected by your location. Again a lawyer is best to answer this.

After you have consulted a lawyer it would be nice if you would come back here and explain just what he told you. As this is a give a little and take a little type of forum. This way you are contributing to the cause in your own small way. No we do not like answering the same questions over and over, even if you are upset at getting the letter, and are anxious for help. You still need to read some before you just throw out the question.

I personally think the starter of this has a very compelling case to tell DTV to go take a long walk on a short pier. He has bought a product that has many uses and he also had registered Microsoft products that the hardware could be used with. The dates of these software packages being registered, immediately go to prove that he had other uses then DTV proposes. So I do nto think that he has anything to worry about. I would say that on the surface of that, he can win hands down. Now like I said before, all this can unravel real fast if you were really careless in e-mails to the seller of the equipment, and DTV may have that at their disposal as well. That is again where a lawyer can ask for all discovery, and he will then be able to tell you all that they have.

Does anyone see a pattern here? It is you need a lawyer, if you decide to defend this yourself, then you are just one of the sheep roaming in the wolf pack teritory. Can you win? It is possible, but it is more likely you will become the buffet at the next feeding frenzy.

I am no lawyer and neither is TTRK, or are 99% of those who post here. This forum can be a great tool for your lawyer, but in no way is it a replacement for one.

[trapstir]

GEO2 whats your take on the Florida case? I see a lot of dismisals by DTV. Is that because the defendants settled or did they provide a stronger case? Very Nice piece by the way!!!

[Evildss]

Some great reading.........but one thing, don't u believe it would be a little late to cancel a sub, two years after u supposedly ordered a programmer, even if u haven't gotten a letter yet? TTRK, u mention to cancel because its better not to have a sub, but they can see u had the sub 2 years or more after the supposed purchase? I agree people should cancel just because of what they are doing, but do you see it helping a settlement or court case any? :R

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Evil,

While there is no guarantee, they often fail to connect a sale to a sub for some reason. I obviously cannot talk openly here in public but I think there are many other good reasons to cancel it anyhow apart from the fact they may not connect it. Like do you really want to add some $2500.00 to $3000.00 valuation to the enemy's company. What if they got thousands of cancellations, as they should, from everyone who purchased anything from a DSS site and is likely to be hassled in an extreme way by them. Do you see the incredible FEAR they have sewn here by this? Would they then follow this strategy if they got 300,000 cancellations at $3k each?

So you can see there are many good reasons for it, not all of them entirely obvious.

There is also a question of negotiation strategy. Nothing is in writing and its not submitted to the court. Its just conversation between lawyers and there may be some very good reasons why the lawyer may want to say this. Sometimes things are incorrect by mistake or are mistaken on purpose, in negotiations.

You have to understand what they are doing here. They do not run to the court and file the invoice as absolute "evidence." They use it to cajole, threaten and intimidate, insinuate and BLUFFin the HOPE of worrying people into settlement but in 90% of the cases they do not file. So there is a game going on and both parties can play that game. I hope you see my meaning which I would rather not elaborate on in public. There is a very clear strategy to negotiation and there is a certain amount of bluff that goes on. I cannot discuss that in public but lawyers understand clearly that and do it all the time. And the more there is elements of truth in that, the better.

If there is a game going on, sometimes its good to play along with the game so long as you do it well.

For a multiplicity of reasons, one of which is they would DROP this foolish strategy if everyone who EVER purchased from a DSS site cancelled, to cancel immediately. If everyone did that their cancellations would surpass their sales for that quarter and there would be some VERY serious discussions as to the cause. They ARE subject to market conditions and they BORROW a lot based on sales over cancellation. Churn KILLS them too.

Since there is NEVER an advantage to being a subscriber as concerns these matters and there is an advantage or ten to cancelling, why would anyone want to be the customer of a company who is rude enough to use intimidation tactics to extort money from their own customers.

In my opinion it is a giant mistake NOT to cancel immediately to thank them back among other important reasons. But thats just an opinionhttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

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[zardoz77]

TTRK,
What purpose would it serve to cancel a 3 year old sub after receiving a letter.I have dish as well,if I just went exclusively dish how does this not look worse at this point?

[Evildss]

TTRK, I understand your position and totally agree! I will talk with my buddy and pretty sure he will cancel, he has moved with no forwarding address(mainly to stop junk mail) and stated he would definately cancel upon receipt of a letter, but they will have to locate him(which I know is easy, but is it worth their time for one programmer), I take it they cannot get a default judgement against him without notifying him? Also, I believe a few months ago he got a new card :o
He has been thinking about dish net for a while anyway because of their cheaper packages and incentives offered to switch! Plus, I keep him informed of these extortion tactics :( and yes he has never pirated a signal because he is a working man and could care less about TV, the basics is all he cares about.........he did someone a favor as a lot of people have probably done(and no, the favor wasn't for me ;) ) Time will tell and TTRK, keep up the good work :) You're giving dish net a lot of help ;) but I wonder what will happen with the merger? This thing could go on for years....
Good Luck to ALL :R