Were these companies real?

[cp1cp2]

A thought I had, maybe a conspiracy theory, but here it goes.

I know some of the companies raided were "real", but were all of them? What I mean, were any of the companies (i.e. White Viper) merely fronts for DTV to sell products knowing they would eventually sue people who bought from them, but in the meantime grow market share. The reason I propose this is due to the fact that they have such detailed customer records for purchases several years old, and emails that are even older. Most legitimate companies do not keep this information that long. Sure they may keep your name, address and what you bought; but why keep detailed FedEx/UPS/USPS shipping details or simple emails? It just doesn't make sense. Anyone else looked into this? If there is a shred of fact to my hypothesis, someone may want to try and link DTV to one of these companies and then their lawsuits are over.

[blcjet]

Originally posted by cp1cp2
A thought I had, maybe a conspiracy theory, but here it goes.

I know some of the companies raided were "real", but were all of them? What I mean, were any of the companies (i.e. White Viper) merely fronts for DTV to sell products knowing they would eventually sue people who bought from them, but in the meantime grow market share. The reason I propose this is due to the fact that they have such detailed customer records for purchases several years old, and emails that are even older. Most legitimate companies do not keep this information that long. Sure they may keep your name, address and what you bought; but why keep detailed FedEx/UPS/USPS shipping details or simple emails? It just doesn't make sense. Anyone else looked into this? If there is a shred of fact to my hypothesis, someone may want to try and link DTV to one of these companies and then their lawsuits are over.


I can't speak for American companies, but at least in Canada, most need to keep detailed "paper trails" in case they are audited. I am going out on a limb here, but I am guessing that most of these companies declared profits from their sales and therefore were not evading paying income tax.

At least for my company, we need to keep documents for upwards of 5 years and if we don't we can be in trouble if we are audited and can't prove income. Like I said I can't speak for the owners of the companies, but I don't think that DTV would be pushing for prosecution if the owners of the companies worked for them.
Most if not all of the companies raided have the owners/managers up on charges.

[cp1cp2]

I understand the need for a paper trail, but that wouldn't include detailed shipping records. For an audit, to prove sales/revenue, you would need to show record of the order and payment. That would inculde anything off of a web site order form or phone-in receipt, and proof of payment (i.e. credit card info, deposit record from a check). Why would you keep an email of a customer asking if a product could be used for a specific purpose or a 3 year old FedEx tracking number? Also, I'm not implying DTV simply opened up one of these businesses, they aren't that stupid. But they could have easily had employees open them, or help fund an opening. Believe me, I know I'm out on a limb here; but it seems like DTV was able to find a lot of information that most "normal" companies don't keep for years.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Folks,

This is total nonsense. All companies must keep all their records including shipping records for 5 years if those are expenses. Today with as 160 gig hard disk costing about $300.00 companies essentially keep record forever. And I am sure that most of the shipping records come as a result of a subpoena to FedEx where its trivial to get old shipping records.
As far as old E-mails, most companies retain all emails as well since it costs nothing to do so. So any conversation with a client can be looked up at any time. Even the salespersons rough notes are maintained with the file so that all discussions are available and these are never purged. What would be the purpose of that since it could cost money to do and nothing not to do.

No these are not stings, just businesses practising normal business practises because these business were not operating illegally as far as they were concerned. Courts in Canada said they were fully legal and in the USA it is NOT illegal to sell ISO-7816 programmers and the like. Where a few vendors went wrong is that they also offered freeware and tools that permitted "signal theft" and that may have given them a harder time if they were sued by DirecTV®.

DirecTV® can often find the actual purchase of a DirecTV® system since the vendor got a commission of about $300.00 for selling it and getting a subscription and DirecTV® paid for this. So the records are right in their own books and records.

But those who did not take a sub and purchased Cash and Carry are probably in the best position since there is no proof that they ever owned a DirecTV® system which is necessary to steal their signal. So they are MISSING most of the required info and have some invoice. BIG DEAL.
Remember that all of this is circumstantial "evidence" and unless the PURCHASER said something terribly incriminating in an E-mail there is generally not proof whatever of any wrongdoing or signal "THEFT". They rely 100% on BLUFF and the silly buyers talking to them and admitting things in their anxiety to talk their way out of this.

That is the WORST thing they could do. The best thing to do is NEVER talk to them yourself so that they cannot increase the virtually meaningless info they have now. So they have an invoice, possibly a delivery slip.

What does THAT prove when the product is perfectly legal like an ISO-7816 programmer? Nothing, thats what. And POSSESSION IS NOT ILLEGAL in a civil matter, only in criminal matters which these are NOT. So do NOT be bamboozled like they are trying to do.

To fight that all you need is brochures from several vendors of these products, a local University smart card professor who can testify that the product is identical to what developers use all the time and to explain to the court that this alone is not nearly enough to accomplish any theft. You can also have him print out the list of vendors you get when you type "SMART CARD PROGRAMMER" into GOOGLE or any good search engine. You will get a list of hundreds and most of them will be DSS vendors even today. How would you imagine they are illegal when they operate openly even today. THere is NO guilt by association in America and if they later did something illegal, that has NO REFLECTION on you.

There is a computer program required (no proof) then proof that you used it in that manner (no proof) the fact that nobody ever saw you steal (no proof) and the requirement of a DTV system with Dish and Receiver (possibly no proof) and a strong inference that you intended to "steal" their programs (no proof). Even the Invoice is not conclusive proof of anything. Can they PROVE that you ordered it and not someone else? You not someone else. Can they prove that you paid for it and not someone else? Can they prove that you received it and not someone else? Do they have YOUR signature on any receiving slip, credit card slip or order slip. I seriously doubt any of that.

So can this be fought and won. Yes in the vast majority of cases it can be WON. Will it cost you money? Yes it always costs money to go to court. But with the minimum of preparation, a court authorized "expert" (any professor teaching smart cards in your area) to both legitimize your programmer and to stop them from saying it could ONLY be used to steal DirecTV® (a ridiculous lie) there is no way you can lose in most cases. But you need the WILL to win and the funds to spend on a defence rather than cowering and giving in to their "economic terrorism" and nonsense for $3500.00 and UP.

So its not very complex to fight but unfortunatlelly most of you will pay $3500.00 and Up in settlements for no valis reason in my opinion. This is from seeing what is happening so far. And I dont see that changing.

So what is the purpose of hashing it all out if you are going to make a settlement rather than fight and win. It seems thats something in peoples PSYCHE and it wont be overcome. And because none of you will fight and win you leave the road clearly and perfectly open for them to continue to "BULLY" and "extortion" to get money from you folks, and you just keep right on payng.

Shame shamehttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

And it sure does not leave much to discuss. As a result i am coming to the conclusion that these discussions are not very valid tor ptroductive and many are still dumb enough to hide their heads in the sand and think the suit is not coming when there are over 2000 of them filed already. But many are in denial. So be it.

And Many still cling to the ridiculous assertion that they are ONLY going after dealers, well to them I say stay tuned because you will soon be a dealer when they SUE you. Anyone who purchased from a raided dealer can expect to receive a lawsuit after the standard letters and hiding your head in the sand wont help but it will dramatically reduce the time you have to make your proofs that you did not do this.

People this is real no matter what kind of a dreamer of conspiracy theories you are. And most people will NEVER be found guilty by any court and will pay them because they are afraid. And they KNOW that because its quite obvious by the posts on these forums. GOOD LUCK whatever you do!!!

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To The REAL King!!

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[cp1cp2]

TTRK, while I normally agree with all of your posts I must take aim a few things you wrote. Don't take this a bashing, but merely a question and answer as I am curious about your thoughts.

First, companies do not need to keep shipping records for 5 years. I perform audits for a living and that is absolutly not required. The only proof of an expense needed would be the invoice from FedEx etal which may or may not have a detail of the shipments. I do understand keeping things on computers is cheap, but most companies purge their old data, especially email, regularly unless the email is specifically flagged to keep. The logic to that is why continue to buy storage to keep data that isn't business critical? As an auditor/CPA, these are all items that I and my company check and help companies set up every day.

My real question to you now.
Why do you think it's so bad for people to settle? I agree that it gives DTV more reason to keep sending the letters, but most people probably don't have the funds to defend themselves in Federal Court. Also, I think I've read in other posts by you, that settling is probably a good idea. And the lawyers I've talked to from your website all suggested settling as it is much cheaper and less trouble. As you know in your court battles, even innocent people lose in court.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi cp1cp2,

Understand that I do not believe that DirecTV® gets these shipping records from the people that they seized but rather from FedEx themselves who microfiche this information for MORE than 5 years. But its not important whether they or people should or should not, the facts are that they DO. These records mean very little anyway as it is rarely the defendant himself who signed. So the proof does not stand.

I have one person who wanted to get his own records from FedEx and they told him that they were NOT available. But then DirecTV® asked them for it too by way of a subpoena and magically FedEx did come up with all transactions. The exact same thing happened with Credit card info. He could not get it but a subpoena did.

So what is the important lesson here. The info can be obtained. All references to whether it should or should not be available DO NOT MATTER since the information WAS OBTAINED. That is what counts even when that info means very little. It just adds to the intimidation, I believe.

The second thing is that it is not my role to decide whether people should settle or not settle. Each person makes his own decision on this and the vast majority are settling even when innocent.

Do I think this is good. Of course not. All it does is encourage this type of "economic terrorism" and make sure that companies do it. Once this is realized I believe that other companies will jump on the bandwagon and realize that people are afraid to go to court and can easily be threatened and will part with their money without a fight. This will increase until the point where so many will get on the bandwagon that it will become NECESSARY to fight. But that will come after these companies have raked in millions.

Please understand that this does not affect me in any way and I really do not care what people do. But I am seeing that the fight will have to come one day because this is WRONG and the justice system should not be so that people have to settle because of the high cost of litigation.

I greatly admire and I help those who are fighting to a much higher degree because they are not fighting for themselves only but for everyone. If they can win then lawyers will have case law that can be used to their advantage in stopping this improper action.

I spend a LOT of time trying to help people who are threatened and terrorized by these actions but I am realizing its a hopeless thing and people will just pay off rather than have any hassle. Maybe that's because there are many more who actually DID STEAL that I was led to believe. I have always said that people who did steal should settle. They cannot win in court unless they lie.

But for those who are not guilty to just cave in and pay $3500.00 because its easy shows no regard for their future and the fact that this will be kept on record by DirecTV® and may well be used later by others, possibly in Criminal cases. That is very dangerous and a distinct possibility. Its a hell of a position for someone to put themselves in when they did noting wrong and I simply have difficulty understanding it.

In fact there is really no reason for all these discussions because if someone is going to settle, its real easy. Just get the checkbook ready and write them the check. There is absolutely no need for all these discussions and posts and letters discussing legalities and illegalities. That does not seem to matter to most people anyway and certainly does not when people just settle.

So I am really wasting my time here and I may as well do something more productive than put up a website with much information that ultimately does not matter anyway.

So I do not take this in any negative way, I just wonder what the point of discussing it is when people will ultimately settle. They know this and I am sure they read the posts here and have a good chuckle all the way to the bank.

It ain't right but it is what is happening. I have to wish the VERY BEST to those few who have the guts to battle and to those gutless ones who cave in to the "extortion" all I can say is good luck, I wish you the best, and I hope it does not come back to bite you in the ASS.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

I would also like to say that when people PROPERLY prepare for a court case, the innocent RARELY Lose. Courts are run by very intelligent people called judges and the supposed "evidence" in these cases is so obscure and circumstantial that it has very little chance of winning in most of these cases. Justice is not cheap but from what I have seen, judges rarely make mistakes when the defendant does his homework and prepares his case properly. And in these cases that's quite easy to do.

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Thanks & Good Luck,
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To The REAL King!!

Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/satelliterights.gif
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/freedomblack.gif

Please REMEMBER OUR WAR HERO’S (http://www.legal-rights.org/remembrance.html) <-- Click here Please!


Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT CENSORSHIP BATTLE (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html) <-- Click here Please!

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[blcjet]

Originally posted by To The Real King!!


I would also like to say that when people PROPERLY prepare for a court case, the innocent RARELY Lose. Courts are run by very intelligent people called judges and the supposed "evidence" in these cases is so obscure and circumstantial that it has very little chance of winning in most of these cases. Justice is not cheap but from what I have seen, judges rarely make mistakes when the defendant does his homework and prepares his case properly. And in these cases that's quite easy to do.

Thanks & Good Luck,
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/rotate_rib.gif
To The REAL King!!


Now I am not one to normally encourage this, but for those who are willing to go the extra mile, in today's justice system there are also a wonderful thing called lawsuits. If you are prepared to go that extra mile to not only fight for yourself but for others, and are proven innocent of the charges, it is now permissible and feasible to be able to recoup losses plus potentially more after the fact. That doesn't change the initial expenditures, but.....It can go along way in the end.

Those who are willing to fight should be commended, because if more were willing to do so, instead of just settling and potentially putting themselves at risk, then the groudwork would be layed. Look at Canada before the Supreme Court verdict....Except for a FEW cases, after the initial win, you would regularly see justices vote in favor of the defendant and not the prosecution. It is called precedent...and is a beautiful thing about our judicial system.