Tell Me what you think

[aj666]

?

[gunsmoke2]

I don't think bringing in the evidence to court is a good idea.



GS2

[DougPirana]

How are you going to get a certificate. I think it has to be connected to a server.

Or

Are you going to use a program? Then you will need the specific certification supplied with the software and hardware.

White Vipers are not plug and play. Which PC/SC drivers do you plan to use?

[DougPirana]

I disagree gunsmoke. Programers have many legal uses. This is one of them.

[gunsmoke2]

I said I didn't think it was a good idea to bring it to court. I did not comment on the legality of a programer.



No lawyer IMHO would recommend that and you aren't allowed to bring devices into court unless they are exhibits for evidence.


GS2

[morgana]

The fact that you will show you now have a program that will be able to run a different smart card and make it do anything from computer access to even unlock a door is good. I will say that you have a very good chance of winning as long as they do not have any other eveidence. I.E. e-mails to the place purchased that may have you saying you got it and it works well and you are now getting all channels..... I think you all know what I mean.

I am not sure DTV would be stupid enough to take thee to trial that they have very flimsey evidence on, But one never knows. It is a shame that people are not organizing and making them defend a case all the way through trial. Yes I know that it is far cheaper to capitulate then go to trial, but maybe if people formed groups amnd forced them to litigate the group as one enity, then you may well see them either back down or really reduce the settlements.

The trouble with this is that DTV may then spend a lot more time and money investigating you, to prepare for trial. If they see this as a threat to their success to the terror tactic, they may then seriously go after you. It woul;d amaze you just what friends, neighbors and relatives, may say about you and your activities, if DTV was to have private detectives do an investigation. Maybe one of your childrens friends may say have they all watched WrestleMania at your place, and it was awsome. They then just need to prove you did not pay for it and you are now toast.

I hate being the devils advocate all the time, but I think you can all see where I am going with all this. The only advice I can give is, Know your adversary well, and do not underestimate him at any time. Never ask a question you do not already know the answer to. Very seldom questioning on the stand truly brings new things to light.

[yachtmd]

Originally posted by aj666
When and "IF" I get summoned to court. I will take with me 3 things.

1) A laptop computer
2) A white Viper card reader/writer
3) An ISO smart card (no not a DirecTV one)

Then I will open the laptop. Put the smart card into the white viper, and show the court room how it logs on to windows for me. Then I will sit down smiling as the DirecTV lawyers look at me with that evil look. Well what do you think :)
look here for smart card security applications
http://www.microsoft.com/security/tech/smartcards/scarddl.asp

click on the Smart card link and then look for the windows 2000 smartcard log on security info, u can use a programmer and a smart card to secure a pc or server with windows 2000

also lots of Microsoft smart card security setup info here

http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techinfo/planning/security/smartcard.asp

also go to Firstoi (add the Ws and the dot com) on the front page is a flash of the smartcard and the Firstoi programmer being used to log into a computer with windows 2000, (that might be all the judge needs to see) also they sell blank smart cards and do developement stuff with customers,
hope this info helps :)

[gunsmoke2]

I disagree gunsmoke. Programers have many legal uses. This is one of them.


Its fine and dandy to say that but there isn't one single person who has gone to court to get a ruling.. why not ?


While we can all say its legal or not it only matters how a Judge will rule and we'll never know unless someone goes to court to challenge it.



GS2

[To The Real King!!]

Hi People,

You are NOT listening to what is being said. Nobody is saying that there are not LOTS of legal uses for a smartcard programmer. In fact I have lots of them posted right here:

http://www.legal-rights.org/sc-programmers.html

What GS2 is saying, and its VERY GOOD advice, is that you do not bring that stuff to court yourself.

The correct thing to do is to hire a "expert" (usually in the form of a university professor with lots of credibility) and bring him to court to TESTIFY. What you do is show him what you want to show the court. He will know this but show him anyway. WHY??

Firstly if he is qualified as an expert (and he likely will since this is a new field) then what he says to the court HAS to be accepted. Its not debatable but rather HAS to be accepted as FACT. Its VERY different from you doing it and he does NOT have to show the court at all. He simply states that he has done it himself and so he is talking from experience.

Secondly it will be very difficult for DirecTV® to refute him (and his credibility) as he presents as an independent "expert" without an agenda which you OBVIOUSLY have. He is there to INFORM the court and when he says it, that is LAW. He is 100% believed and DTV's expert is unlikely to be able to do anything but AGREE with him.

When that happens it is generally case over since its very unlikely that they have any other evidence.

You will probably have to testify and state that this is WHY you purchased it, to develop smartcard programs for computer security. And you may be asked why you did not just BUY one. The probably answer is that you intend to market your system in the coming time but have not reached that stage yet.

But if you get that far and appear in the courts doorstep with a expert in hand (your lawyer will have told them that) they will very likely have an agreement with them that lets you off the hook totally. If they do not have that then they will likely withdraw the case before court which I believe they can do at any time. But you can be sure that they will NOT want to go through with the court case.

Most people will not do this and right now the vast majority of people 99.9% are settling and paying them money because its the least expensive way of dealing with it. When it comes to reality (not posting here which is NOT reality) then the bravado goes and most people just settle.

Not all, because I know some who ARE fighting and have developed excellent cases but we believe DirecTV® will drop the cases rather than proceed. Some of these defendants will file counter claims so that it cannot get dropped. They WANT to proceed in court.

But the truth is that for every ONE person who WANTS to battle against them and cause them a loss in court there are 99 or more defendants who will settle.

I spoke to one person today who is fighting and he described it as 11 defendants who all agreed to fight and so they charged, but when he reached the top of the hill and yelled "lets GO BOYS" he turned around to see the others and there were none.

What had happened?

The other 10 had either settled on the way or they had default judgements against them since they did not respond to the suit. That is the way it is going right now. Far less that 1 in 100 is fighting them in spite of all the bold talk in the forums.

And I do not blame anyone for doing what he deems best for him but the end result is that this is becoming immensely profitable for DirecTV®. Period!!

So if you are one of the rare ones who is fighting, DO IT PROPERLY.

Get an expert (not expensive usually) and bring him into court after your lawyer (not you) has coached him and knows what he will answer to a large series of questions that he would ask as the PROSECUTION and the DEFENCE. That will get analysed so the lawyer knows what to expect.

Believe me guys, there is a proper way and a WRONG way to do this. Go in alone and your will be TOASTED!!

Just some friendly advice you can either follow or ignore.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

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[trapstir]

What if you take in a Netsignia 210 and 2 subscribed HU cards and ask the Attorneys if that device will program those cards? If they don't know maybe they will need one of DTV tech's to try it.

[NLogN]

Originally posted by DougPirana
How are you going to get a certificate. I think it has to be connected to a server.

Or

Are you going to use a program? Then you will need the specific certification supplied with the software and hardware.

White Vipers are not plug and play. Which PC/SC drivers do you plan to use?

There are generic PC/SC drivers for phoenix programmers here:

http://www.ttfn.net/techno/dm.html (driver),

there is corresponding scripting software here:

http://www.ttfn.net/techno/smartcards/scscript.html (scripting sw),

and there is corresponding PC/SC testing software here:

http://www.ttfn.net/downloads/pcsc/pcsctest.zip.

edit: corrected syntax prob with last link...sorry.

[aj666]

?

[ex-subscriber]

Then they will probably demonstrate to the judge how they can hack YOUR cards with YOUR equipment and then reapply the subbed image to return them to an unhacked state. BTW, why do you still have a sub.?

[trapstir]

Remmember old equipment won't hack the Hu cards, need a loader or flashable unlooper that may or may not work. Thats my position, can they hack it with the pirate ware and my netsignia 210.

[ex-subscriber]

I'm sure they can very easily produce an h card and demonstrate to the judge how your euipment has no problem hacking it.

[rob13572468]

Originally posted by trapstir
Remmember old equipment won't hack the Hu cards, need a loader or flashable unlooper that may or may not work. Thats my position, can they hack it with the pirate ware and my netsignia 210.


you are missing the point; think about what ttrk has been saying (repeatedly)... even though those are good arguments, you do not want to go into court and talk in front of the judge about hu cards, programmers, etc. anything that you talk about is completely admissible and the rules of law are different in a criminal vs civil case... in a civil case, the plaintiff does not need to prove that the respondant was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but merely has to prove that it was likely that the acts were committed... that is all the court requires for a judgment. This is why you do not even want to discuss anything in relation to "programming hu cards" you dont even want to say that you know that hu cards can be programmed....

As ttrk said, IF you even get to court, your lawyer will only need to argue that what you purchased (thats only if there is proof that you did.) is used for this legal purpose and bring in the necessary evidence to back the argument. absolutely nothing more should ever be said. it is highly likely, given this scenario that dtv will motion for dismissal the day that it goes to trial rather than risk setting a losing precedent. (but dont count on that; they may decide to fight to the end, just to be stubborn, so be prepared to go the distance if you decide that you want to fight)

[woody2069]

guys IF you get one of the letters just take it to your lawyer and let him /her handle it (besides that is what you will be paying them for)... the best thing you can do is keep your mouth shut, never say a word to dave or anyone else. in all probability the judge will not know what the hell an illegal smart card device is so bringing one into court will not help you at all.

in my younger days i had a few run ins with the law, and i can tell you from experience that you will inevitably screw yourself over if you open your mouth. just sit back and relax.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Rob and Woody,

You gentlemen BOTH understand what this is about and AJ you started strong but I now see you haven't a clue and your not learning through my posts so I am wasting my time here.

Good Luck gentlemen who need help. You may want to listen to those who don't. And there may even be a reason why you do need help and others don't (present posters excluded totally).

You were NOT too smart to buy using your name and address and tracable payment in the FIRST place and you looking even dimmer now. Sorry to be harsh but the truth will out. If you were so smart you would not be here needing help. And thats boys is the way it is. So either shut up the fingers and learn by reading or go into court with all that crap and lose you ass. The choice is yours. We are all responsible for our own actions and when we need help we ask, not tell, about how to win. You guys except for Rob and Woodie, Ex-Subscriber, (great name ) GS2 and Morgana seem sure to know how to lose. Of what use are drivers in court? They may be needed for the expert but if you even hint that you know what a H-Card IS, you may be toast. Hurray!!!http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

Bye the way for those with little brains, if they can show your equipment can hack a " F-Card", you are toast. DONE!!! Read the damn law before mouthing off. Sorry to be harsh guys but I have had it with my patience running VERY thin with so many posts and so many who do not learn. Go ahead, bring everything to court and commit suicide!! Be my GUEST :)

Shucks the DirecTV® engineers have a little bag of tricks, called HU-Extreme, Arrow, BasicH, Winexplorer and scripts, Tornado and a few more. He would LOVE to show the Judge exactly what they cannot do :)

Heck he can probably program a Nagra card if you like. Kindegarden guys it will be an EDUCATED Judge that will convict you and award $10,000.00 and $850.00 costs agaoinst you. Enjoy!!. Where do we find guys like this?

Dont you know that the TOP HACKERS in the friggin country work for them. They have forgotten 25 times what you pischers will EVER know altogether. What a laugh!!! Yup its HARIKARI TIME BOYS!!! I'm done!!

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To The REAL King!!

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[JD490]

Would it be bad if your expert witness showed the court how a smart card is used maybe as a security key for loggin on to a Laptop. Although if the defendent demonstrated to the court what he was using the programmer for this might explain the purchase and ligitiment use of the device.

[Lager]

If you have an expert witness you have no need for dramatics in the courtroom. If the court certifies him as an expert witness, what he tells the judge is what the judge sees as fact. If he explains that the item you purchased could be used for 15 million application aside from programming DTV cards that is all you need. There is no need to complicate things.

Lager

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Guys,

Not only is Lager RIGHT but any dramatics like bringing in a laptop will probably COST HIM BROWNIE POINTS and NOT be appreciated by the judge. What an EXPERT (qualified) says is what IS FACT to the Judge. He WILL be believed. And their expert may try to prove him wrong but that is RARELY successful specially when he gives the facts as they are.

FACT: A smart card programmer has hundreds of valid reasons for its existence OTHER than piracy. That is what counts and it cannot be countered. Period.

But they don't say that and this can be shown by their letters to the defendant and to his lawyer. They say it has only one purpose. PIRACY. Disprove that and you have WON.

Its pretty simple is it not?http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

Oh and you may have to testify that your use WAS NOT piracy but something else. That was exactly the point that you are here pleading NOT guilty. Because you did not do that. So you probably will have to say so to the court. Your lawyer will ask you "did you use this programmer to pirate the DirecTV® signal" and you answer NO SIR!!. Was that EVER your intention. NO SIR! END.

DirecTV® cannot twist your arm in cross examination and the simpler you answered, the less room for cross examination. So you DO NOT say ONE WORD more than is necessary to say NO SIR. No explanation, no BULL, NOTHING. Just NO SIR!! No matter HOW he puts that question to you, and he WILL try to convelute it, the answer is NO SIR I DID NOT EVER USE IT FOR PIRACY NOR DID I EVER INTEND THAT. NO.

And if he asks you did you ever discuss that answer with your lawyer, the answer is YES SIR!! Do not get caught in some dumb unnecessary lie. THey are tricky enough to ask that. Do not answer wrong!!! You discussed everything with your lawyer, that is why you hired him. He did NOT give you the answers but he explained what the questions would be and ASKED you the answer. You told him the same thing you say here and now.

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[SpinyNorman]

I have an unused White Viper Programmer that I wanted to use for logging into Windows and I can't get Windows 2000 to recogonize it. I have tried the Litsonic and others and no go!

When I run the PC/SC troubleshooter, it does not identify the programmer.

Ya know, this is a fun hobby. I love gadgets.

Any help is appreciated.

[NLogN]

Originally posted by SpinyNorman
I have an unused White Viper Programmer that I wanted to use for logging into Windows and I can't get Windows 2000 to recogonize it. I have tried the Litsonic and others and no go!

When I run the PC/SC troubleshooter, it does not identify the programmer.

Ya know, this is a fun hobby. I love gadgets.

Any help is appreciated.

Have you already downloaded & installed the generic pc/sc drivers from www.ttfn.net?!? I've pasted links at least twice in the last couple of weeks. If you haven't installed them already, do that FIRST, and THEN try to figure out how to do it yourself. It's not that hard. Why don't you try Win2k Help??? Try searching "smart card." Do some reading, learn how Win2k handles smart cards & programmers, and how they can be used in the Win2k environment. Log-ons aren't the only application...for example, they can be used for network access authentication. Hey, if you're still having trouble, *THEN* post some specific questions in the advanced technical forum.
Sorry for the rant...but with a little reading you would've known about the pc/sc drivers. :eek:

[SpinyNorman]

I have tried numerous drivers and install exe's and can't get it to work properly. I tried the ttfn.net ones and the same problem.

Thats why I said I have tried the litronic and others. I guess I should of mentioned the ttfn stuff. When I run the ttfn detect (within Control panel) it indicates no card is inserted. I am using 1K cards, do I need 8K T0/T1's?

When I try to get a cert from verisign, it says no card is inserted.

Your right though, this is not the place for this post and I will take my questions to the advanced technical forum.

Thanks for your help, without it I would be lost.

[NLogN]

Sorry again for the rant. Hey, the ttfn drivers can be tricky to get working, especially if you've already installed other drivers (potential conflicts). I'll help you get them running...no worries, mate.

Yes, let's move this to another forum. I believe "pc hardware & software discussions" is probably the most appropriate for this.

[gunsmoke2]

I am from Canada but was in court in conn a few times. As soon as you enter the building I went through security just like at a airport. They search with the metal detector on you and you have to open up any bags you are carrrying.


Any objects they find they keep at the entrance and you get them back when you leave. Now this is one Court in Norwalk, Conn but I suspect most courts have similar security.


And this was before 9/11 so I would think that security is beefed up since then.


Discussing what objects you are going to bring into court is not constructive IMHO..



GS2

[DougPirana]

what about pictures of it working?

[woody2069]

all you want to bring to court is yourself, your lawyer and an expert witness...thats it.... anything else only helps dave

[rob13572468]

Originally posted by gunsmoke2
I am from Canada but was in court in conn a few times. As soon as you enter the building I went through security just like at a airport. They search with the metal detector on you and you have to open up any bags you are carrrying.


Any objects they find they keep at the entrance and you get them back when you leave. Now this is one Court in Norwalk, Conn but I suspect most courts have similar security.


And this was before 9/11 so I would think that security is beefed up since then.


Discussing what objects you are going to bring into court is not constructive IMHO..
GS2

yesy, that is correct.. they will not even allow a tape recorder... all electronic items are confiscated at the checkpoints and only the judges order will allow them to be brought in (usually by a bailiff). The problem is that it is a big pain to get the items brought in and the judge will likely be irritated if he has to deal with it.

Bring an expert... its alot easier and better for your case.

[gunsmoke2]

they will not even allow a tape recorder


Yup I had one when I went to court and the security took it away. I argued that it contained evidence which it did but it was fruitless.



GS2