My reply to the DTV letter

[butchs18]

I have now received my 2nd letter from DTV lawyers.
The letters came from 2 different firms.

[morgana]

You have done yourself harm when you sai that they have nothing more on you then a mail order list and a device name. You should not have mentioned this as it only validates their list. They will alson have the payment method and shipping way bill, but that is not really the point in this. You also said you had DTV for a short time and had renewed it recently. Also not a good thing as you have now given them the ability to confirm the times you had these and also if it matches in some way the timing of the device you bought.

You have in your letter nowe validated their mailling list and delivery, and also admited you had DTV on and off. Since the device can be used to pirate DTV signals, you have now given them the possibility, that the unit was used to that purpose. Remember if you had not of sent them this info they would be hard pressed to find it themselves. It has been said before if you must respond use a lawyer. If you do not, you probably find you have given away way more then you think. Hard lesson to learn, but it is one you will probably not forget ery soon either.

[Thor]

I know how you people feel,but this is not a wise thing to do.
You never volunteer more information to them,it may cost a little money to get an attorney do this but it will be well spent.
If nothing else at least please consult an attorney,most don't charge for a simple consultation..

[butchs18]

Most people can't afford an attorney. You just can't set
on you hands and wait for the next letter to roll in.
These people a serious. Its all Dollars, They are not going to
just drop it.

[davidnb]

Originally posted by butchs18
Morgana, just so you know, They all ready have that infro.
Your missing the point, The burden of proof is on them to prove
any device was used to steal there signal.
Like someone said if I buy a new ford and somebody else buys one and
uses it to run over somebody and kills them do you think I'll be
liable too because I own one. I think not!!

butchs18,
Not trying to flame you, but Morgana was just trying to help. As Morgana mentioned, you have admitted a fair amount in your reply that can be used agianst you. Also, in the unlikly event that they monitor this web site, they can get additional infromation on you by searching your posts. A quick search and it appears you have called them by phone and have made some posts indicating the equipment you purchased.

Spend the money, use a lawyer, its worth it.

Good luck

[butchs18]

davidnb
Your probley right about someone checking out this web site
Just being a member of any site like this one may be used against
us.How do we explain that? We have a lot to think about!
Maybe I'm missing something,but In my letter I don't see that there was anything admitted to.

[morgana]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but you have fallen into the pit that we have been trying to explain to people about you contacting them directly, without the intervention of a lawyer. Where you feel that nothing extra was given in your reply, I disagree. Even if they knew all of this or could find it, if they researched it, you made that all un-necessary by validating it all. Also lets get something straight so you understand, this is civil action it does not have the same burden of proof that criminal charge has. It only requires that their version have a slightly more truthful ring then yours to win and visa versa. The action you took gave them that little edge. You bought from a site that sold these as pirate devices and took delivery, and paid for it. You have owned and subbed a DTV system in the past and yes you still have that system, so it is logical for them to make their case that the reason you cancelled the system was because you had pirated the signal.

You would now become prime target for them to send one of their PI's to do a quick check with your neighbours etc., to see if you had them over and watched any of the shows..... and so on. If they smell the $10,000.00 settlement coming they can and will take it to the end. Your response may have given them that line of thinking.

Now yes, you may well have another outlook, and that may be right. I am only trying to see this from DTV's lawyers eyes. Be thankful I do not work for them, as I can see your small faux pas as just the beginning. Lets hope they do not see it the way I do.

[gunsmoke2]

So are you going to court to defend yourself ? don't mean to be negative but that letter will not defer DTV from continuing.



GS2

[butchs18]

Morgana
Thanks for your reply but I think we all need to be more positive.
The way you put it is that we are all up the creek without a paddle!

[davidnb]

For one, they now have a valid address and aswell they now know you sub to them for a brief period, then stopped, then started again awhile later. "That device is not illegal unless it was used to illegally receive a copyrighted signal" They could assume you used the device during this period to receive the signal for free. You admitted to subing to DTV.


By saying "All you have is a mail order list with my name an a device listed." you admitted to buying the device and from this firm.

"I will depend on our court System to settle this mater. "
And so will DTV. Remember, they give their side and you give yours and then a judge decides.

See a lawyer and take a copy of the letter you wrote with you. Lawyers are paid to discuss these matters and advise the best course of action.

Good luck

[butchs18]

This is what I think, If dtv forces everybody that got a letter
to hire a lawyer they have won. I probley will have to hire one
but not yet!

[kdsvisual]

Butch (or should i say David), good luck fighting "Goliath" in court. Keep us updated.

[gunsmoke2]

Butch,


DTV does not have a heart. They are not the type of company to send out letters just for the sake of doing so in hopes of getting a few to settle.


They will either agree to settle on their terms or get a default judgement if you don't respond. They will go to court and have hired a slew of lawfirms throughout the US. Money is no object to them.


It doesn't really matter if they have to demonstrate that you use a device illegally or not. That would only happen if you went to court and even then theres no guarantee who will win. They ( DTV ) know they got you and the rest by the balls.


It sucks but you might as well face the reality of the situation now.



Good Luck


GS2

[dsshoser]

and received such a letter at a US Address you were using?
What can they do?

[butchs18]

gunsmoke2
Thanks for the reply. You right, but I trying to fight this thing as long as I can. But who knows what the out come will be!

[fancy pants]

Also, in the unlikly event that they monitor this web site

no disrespect davidnb;)

[davidnb]

Originally posted by fancy pants
no disrespect davidnb;)
None taken. Its why I wrote " in the unlikely event that they..."

[gunsmoke2]

what if you are Canadian

and received such a letter at a US Address you were using?
What can they do?


Assuming you live in Canada with whatever you bought they can't do very much. In theory they could get a default Judgement and bring it up to Canada and request through the courts to enforce the Judgement against you but I highly doubt they would do that.



GS2

[dsshoser]

Gunsmoke,
Thanks for the info.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Guys,

Well I have said time and time again to contact a lawyer first. I feel bad for butch since so few people seem to get the point. Even though butch does not see it, he just cooked himself.

Several of the lawyers have told me that their clients screwed up the case where they could have made a great deal.

In fact DirecTV™ are so pissed at the advice we are giving people here and on legal-rights that they are now CALLING people on the PHONE BEFORE they send the letter in the hope of getting a statement they can record.

So anyone else who wants to do that, just do what butch did, send them a letter advising them that their unknown list IS CORRECT and that you have a sub do that they can see how that relates to your purchase. Also confirm that you live where they sent the letter and that you are responsive.

This tells them that this guy did it and now they will investigate via your neighbors, ask them if you have open house on big fight days because they have a prize for you if you did and through other surreptitious means that sneaky private dic's use, go even farther. They may say that they want a card done and are willing to pay $500.00 to a neighborhood teenager and another 100 tricks that you simply cannot imagine. And now they will be especially pleased to hear that you will fight your own case since its well known that a person who has himself for a client, has a FOOL for a client.

If they win in court they ask for $10,000.00 so I sure hope you have a GREAT defence. But now that they know you have a DirecTV™ dish on the house they are rubbing their hands in glee.

It's such a shame that people do not take advise and the ONLY advise anyone should take on these FORUMS is to CONSULT A LAWYER before doing anything else. That is the ONLY advice I would follow since none of us are lawyers. Oh and the first 15 minute consultation to KNOW if you really need a lawyer is usually FREE!!!

What good will it do to be positive if we all do the wrong thing. What is there to be positive about?

Anyhow good luck butch, I wish you the best but you sure are making your case an extremely difficult one. You may want to consider trying to change that now at least as much as you can.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

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[kraemer94]

You have to remember, These devices can be used for other things not just using them to get free TV. My company has some on thier servers for sercurity. This is not illegal to own!! They would have to prove you took the device and program a card. They would need a video of you doing it or a undercover person to ask you to program a card and then he watches you do it.I received a letter also, I talk to a attorney he he said the same thing. I also use my device to login to Windows 2000 and XP.I'm not calling. If and when they want to do something they will have to come knocking on my door and it won't be by mail. Also I would like to point out these attorneys and counselors have their address on these letters they or sending out to people, HMMMM. I hope they don't piss off the wrong person if you know what I mean.

[gunsmoke2]

This is not illegal to own!! They would have to prove you took the device and program a card.



Maybe or maybe not but the main point that seems to be lost is that you will have to go through trial and then maybe again on appeal.


Unless someone is willing to do that and spend the money otherwize you'll never know. We can always talk about how its not illegal but frankly IMHO that's all its going to be.


I hope someone does fight it.



GS2

[JD490]

You could send a letter asking them what proof they have. I know a guy that sent a letter just telling them he has no idea what they are talking about. If your worried about getting sued and loosing then I would get an attorney to handle it. If your not worried about loosing in court then just hold out till they either sue or leave you alone. You should be able to decide if you want to settle or fight in court without sending them anything.

[m_jonis]

Not to say that one should contact DTV (or their lawyers) directly BUT does prolonging the inevitable help anyone?

To quote TTRK:

"So anyone else who wants to do that, just do what butch did, send them a letter advising them that their unknown list IS CORRECT and that you have a sub do that they can see how that relates to your purchase. Also confirm that you live where they sent the letter and that you are responsive.

This tells them that this guy did it and now they will investigate via your neighbors, ask them if you have open house on big fight days because they have a prize for you if you did and through other surreptitious means that sneaky private dic's use, go even farther. They may say that they want a card done and are willing to pay $500.00 to a neighborhood teenager and another 100 tricks that you simply cannot imagine. And now they will be especially pleased to hear that you will fight your own case since its well known that a person who has himself for a client, has a FOOL for a client. "

Um, okay, a bit of nit-picking here, but here goes:

1) Does anyone REALLY believe that DTV and their lawyers do NOT know the people on their list may have been subbed to them? I mean really, DTV has the list of subscribers and the list of purchases, does anyone really think they didn't cross-reference any of them? Or if they haven't done so already, that if you say, "Nope, I never subbed to DTV" that their lawyers won't give this info to DTV and DTV won't check and respond accordingly? In other words, so what if someone said they subbed to DTV? (granted, I'd never talk to DTV lawyers directly) and it may not be a good idea to "volunteer" information, but I fail to see that NOT volunteering will somehow prevent them from find out that you ever subbed to them. Fact of the matter is EVERYONE who doesn't settle is being sued. Those that go to court and get discovery, does no one think that at that point they won't have information that you DID sub? (if indeed you actually did)

2) Um, "confirm you live where they sent the letter." Okay. Given that some (apparently not all) of the letters are being sent via certified mail, in THIS case, that point is moot. If they sent the letter via certified mail and you signed for it, they know you live where they sent the letter. (even if you go through an attorney they know you got the letter they sent to you, so what's the big deal?)

3) Simply admitting you purchased said items (which in MOST of the vendors apparently DTV DOES have name/address, AND purchase information--if you paid via CC), that you DID sub to DTV does NOT mean you admit to stealing the signal. First of all, if you don't "admit" these things odds are that DTV already has "proof" that you DID purchase X items (from what people are posting here it seems that the list IS fairly accurate as to WHAT was purchased), obtaining further proof (ie, credit card or shipping info) isn't going to be that hard (in some cases they already have that information) and they'd do it if it went to court anyway. Secondly, the sub information (see point 1) they already have or can easily obtain.

4) Even if you don't respond and go through an attorney, if the lawyer sends out a letter to DTV and says, "my client never purchased anything and didn't steal anything" do you NOT believe that DTV will respond and say, "yes, we know he ordered 3 Unloopers, 2 EMU's, paid via CC, shipped via FedEx, signed for, and oh by the way, he subbed to DTV up to the point he got those items?" IF they don't respond at that point, do you not think that during discovery they won't have this information? Again, those that do NOT settle (apparently the $3500 is not negotiable anymore) get sued.

To repeat: I'm NOT saying one should go ahead and contact DTV or their scum lawyers. I'm just saying that IF you purchased the items AND you did sub to DTV that "proving" that information is VERY easy for DTV (if they haven't already done so) and that to somehow think that by not "giving" this information to DTV that they won't find out is wishful thinking. (my opinion of course) Obviously the accuracy of the list can be questionable in SOME cases (ie, whiteviper) but again from what I've read here, most purchases from say, Vector technologies, etc. ARE accurate (meaning that if they say you bought X, the posts here indicate that yes indeed that IS correct).

Although I would question the following tactic:

Deny everything, (meaning, no I DIDN'T buy anything, No I NEVER subbed to DTV) tell your lawyer this, then DTV responds with "proof" (meaning you DID actually buy stuff and DID sub to DTV). Now it looks like you lied to your attorney and made your attorney look bad in the eyes of DTV. I think THAT hurts your bargaining power as it were. But I'm no lawyer. Maybe someone would care to comment on THAT?

[davidnb]

You tell your lawyer the truth, if you hacked DTV you tell him. Your lawyer acts on your behalf so don t screw around with him. The important thing to do is not talk to DTV lawyer's yourself. It doesn't matter the reason, don t call, hirer a lawyer and have him deal with it. Any call you make yourself can add to the problem.

If butchs18 had sent the letter he posted, he would of screwed himself big time.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Guys,

No I never suggested that anyone lie to their lawyer or anyone else. In fact I have always said the exact opposite. Be truthful with your lawyer 100% and tell him the full story . But NEVER talk to DTV's lawyers directly and do not confirm anything. They may well be able to confirm certain things and then again they may not. They are going in totally blind and if they get anything, let THEM GET it themselves, don't give it to them on a platter.

Firstly they will go after the EASY ones first. Perhaps, just perhaps someone will win a case and create case law that is favorable to you but if you have speeded things up for them by confirming things that may make them ACT NOW instead of putting it aside for now. Then you may force yourself to settle by confirming things only later to find out they are dropping certain cases because of the case law. Don't do that.

Look people, I am not going to get this letter, they already won a 19 million lawsuit against me. But if you do not want to benefit from my experience then just ignore me. There is no need to go on and on with details.

Timing is everything and helping them is not wise. It may help to delay so what is the rush to confirm anything.

In this matter there are really 2 things you can do (with subsections and variations of each).

(1) The point is GET A LAWYER, DO NOT TALK TO THEM and DO discovery regardless. That is the only way to get a better deal in negotiation or to get it dropped by them or to win against them. But if you do not start this process you leave yourself no options but to settle.

(2) If you are anxious to pay them $3500.00 then just call them, settle and send them a check. Its pretty simple but those are really the two choices people have.

You settle or you begin to fight which leaves lots of possibilities open to you later. You can settle for less, they may drop it or you may win against them in court. But if you do not start with path 1 then you are left with path 2 at full price. If you do nothing to show you are innocent then they wont reduce anything.

These are the main choices and YOU should do whichever you think best.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

So there is no real need for theoretical discussions of the value of their proof, their lack of proof, what they can and cant do and all of that. Its NOT up to them, its up to YOU as to where this goes. Do nothing and they will sue or start to do 1 or do2. Thats really all there is. All of the theory will ONLY be decided with 1 above and most people who do fight and are innocent will WIN.

So now the choice is up to YOU!!! I am not here to KNOCK anyone, I wish you all the best of luck but all I want to do is to point out your options. You have to make the decision on what to do but DONT start off on the wrong foot by helping them. Any time you talk to them you ARE helping them, whether you realize it or not. That is the main point. DO NOT ASSSIST THEM, they don't need the help:)

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---------

[m_jonis]

Thanks for the clarification, TTRK.

Question for anyone:

Has anyone here "carried" the situation to discovery? If so, how much did you spend on attorneys fees to get it to that point?

If you DID go this far, did you settle? If so, for how much?

[tga]

I used my brothers CC and it was mailed to his house because the CC company requires that. How can I properly take the heat away from him and his wife. They got a letter resently, and are pissed. I have agreed to take responsibility I just want to do it so they a cleared completely. I bought two emulators. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thxs

[To The Real King!!]

Hi TGA,

They may actually be able to help you quite a bit by saying that they lent their credit cards to order that to someone who did not have one and the credit card company insisted on delivering it to their house. And the person whose name they cant quite remember came over and picked it up.

But they never used it in any illegal way (in fact they never saw it or used it at all) and it was never for them. You may want to talk to a lawyer on their behalf (with them present) and see what the lawyer thinks. If they cannot figure out who got it and your bro signs an affidavit to this effect that HE did NOT order it, but a friend did with his credit card then they may be forced to drop it. But YOU should cover the cost of the lawyers.

If the friend dropped out of site as casual friends often do then his name Jon without a last name may not be all that helpfu;. It will be impossible to prove it was used for illegal purpose when they do not even know who it was that used it.

Thats up to them to figure out.


For one reason or another, usually for convenience we often let others use our credit card as long as they pay us right away in cash. That action is not illegal and since the device is not illegal either in and of itself (if not used illegally) and YOU did not use it (the cc owner) then there is lettle they can do.

But see a lawyer about it first.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

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Thanks & Good Luck,
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/rotate_rib.gif
To The REAL King!!

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http://www.legal-rights.org/images/satelliterights.gif
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[davidnb]

Originally posted by tga
I used my brothers CC and it was mailed to his house because the CC company requires that. How can I properly take the heat away from him and his wife. They got a letter resently, and are pissed. I have agreed to take responsibility I just want to do it so they a cleared completely. I bought two emulators. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thxs

You may have to settle with (DTV) inorder to clear your brothers name. Best thing is to talk to a lawyer but either way, I doult your brother wants to receive anymore letters threating a lawsuit.

[JD490]

I know a friend that tried this saying a ex friend used his credit card. DTV wanted the name and address of the friend. They said if they could contact this ex friend they might drop it. Basicly they would just send him a letter if he called them and said yes I orderd the device they would drop it. He told them he didn't konw where he was. They now have sent him the second letter the sample law suit.

[giveupdave]

Originally posted by fancy pants
no disrespect davidnb;)

Read the bottom of this link.
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/rp00759e.html
names the den with a link to a thread

[JimInTheBeaches]

giveupdave:

This was posted long ago by TTRK in the thread to which it points.