WRT Dave's ltr

[HW_Girl]

All,

Can we get a CLEAR NON-BS answer from people who have received letters? What would be nice is if the rest of us who have or will receive letters can get an idea of WHAT happens if...

So please can you post in the following catagories and let us know what happened??!!

1) Received letter, ignored letter. Another words, didn't respond to Dave. What happened to all those who took this route? What did Dave to in response?

2) Received letter and responded via phone. What happened?

3) Received letter and responded via letter writen by NON legal person. What did Dave do in response?

4) Received letter had legal counsel take care of it. What did Dave do?

It would be REALLY helpful if people could answer which ever catagory they fall into and explain what happened to them. This way, those of us who have JUST received the letter or will be receiving the letter will have an idea what to expect.

Thanks!! HWG

[giveupdave]

1) Received letter, ignored letter. Another words, didn't respond to Dave. What happened to all those who took this route? What did Dave to in response?
You get a second letter.

2) Received letter and responded via phone. What happened?
Not advisable to phone Yourself as you could end up giving them information that could be used against you and they would also Offer terms of settlement.

3) Received letter and responded via letter writen by NON legal person. What did Dave do in response?
Same answer as number 2

4) Received letter had legal counsel take care of it. What did Dave do?
Offer terms of settlement

[HW_Girl]

1) "...You get a second letter."
What happens when you ignore second letter?

2) "Not advisable to phone Yourself as you could end up giving them information that could be used against you and they would also Offer terms of settlement. "
What are the terms of settlement when "I've" done nothing illegal?

3) "Same answer as number 2"
Same question as #2. Dave "cannot" prove I did anything illegal! Like I said "Dave, I didn't do nothin, man!" What is Dave's next move?

4) ..."Offer terms of settlement" Again, settlement to what? I didn't do anything illegal! What's there to settle? What is Dave's response to THIS??

It sounds like people have done all four options, but what is Dave's NEXT move....It almost seems like ignoring the letter is the "best" solution??

[ekati]

HW_Girl, have you read any one the 50 or so posts from other ppl getting letters? Check around most of your questions have been answered several times.

[Rydman313]

HW_Girl- You can try to ignore it if you like, but it does not just go
away all by itself. Guaranteed. If you don't respond to their letters,
either personally or through legal counsel, they will go ahead and file
Civil suit against you in your local Federal court, at which time they
will attempt to serve summons on you. If you somehow avoid being served,
they will proceed without you, and likely get a default judgement against
you, and it will probably be the full amount of whatever they claim
against you along with about $850.00 in legal fees.
Just exactly how they will take payment on that judgement is unknown,
and may be determined, in part, to other relevant statutes. Not to
mention the nasty mark it will leave in your credit history......

Bottom line: the letter is expensive, and there is no way around it. You
will spend alot of money in the near future with regards to it,
either to your attorney, or to them via a settlement.
Sucks, but that's the way it is......

[HW_Girl]

Yes, I read ALL day yesterday and get conflicting stories. Some say to ignore it because they cannot prove anything, some say hire a lawyer, etc... This is why I posted my post I want to hear from people who have done each of the following options and what happened. It sounds like if I ignore it, I will make them do extra work and I won't have to worry about it until I get "served". furthermore, other people stated they cannot "serve" you with the only evidence being you bought a smart card programmer.

It sounds like they are doing a "blanket threat" and it will just go away...

[razorburn]

HW-Girl,

You and I are in the same boat. I bought a ISO-2 programmer about 1.5 years ago (when I didn't even have DTV). Now, these A-holes are about to cost me a lot of money for protecting myself from a lawsuit based on something I did not even do. I just received my second letter this weekend. I ignored the first letter because if you read the next to the last paragraph closely, you could interpret that paragraph as "if you're guilty, call us." Let me know if you find any good avenues to stop these roaches!

[giveupdave]

Originally posted by HW_Girl
Yes, I read ALL day yesterday and get conflicting stories. Some say to ignore it because they cannot prove anything, some say hire a lawyer, etc... This is why I posted my post I want to hear from people who have done each of the following options and what happened. It sounds like if I ignore it, I will make them do extra work and I won't have to worry about it until I get "served". furthermore, other people stated they cannot "serve" you with the only evidence being you bought a smart card programmer.

It sounds like they are doing a "blanket threat" and it will just go away...

It will not go away, you will conitue to receive letters untill you are served with the lawsuit.

[HW_Girl]

>
"It will not go away, you will conitue to receive letters untill you are served with the lawsuit."

This IS my question! How many people have continued to ignore these letters AND have been served with a lawsuit??? Doesn't the accusser HAVE to provide ENOUGH evidence of "guilt" in order to proceed with a lawsuit??? After all, I thought we still lived in America. So of those who have ignored these letters, how many HAVE been served via a courier who REQUIRED a signature from the served person???

Just trying to get some fact together so I can figure out what my game plan is.

Razorburn:
"I just received my second letter this weekend. " How long did it take to get the second letter? Are you going to ignore this one too? Do they make different threats? THANKS!

[giveupdave]

There are plently of posts on this subject. I think that a signature is not required when you are mailed the lawsuit. It would not make sense as you could avoide being sued by simply refusing to sign for anything.

My suggestion would be to go talk to a lawyer to get the proper advice. A simple 1 hour talk of the subject couldn't cost too much. At least you will know where you stand. Take any letters with you that dave has mailed and be honest with the lawyer. The problem isn't going to go away and nor will you find a total solution on any chat site.

Good Luck

[blcjet]

This is from TTRK, who has an immense wealth of knowledge on this subject.....


Hi Guys,

Firstly If you get a lawers letter from a DirecTV® lawyer, you should contact a trusted lawyer yourself. If you don't have one get a reference on a trusted one from good friends.

The problem here is that Dave PRESUMES that if you buy a programmer from a DSS site you used it to steal TV. Naturally that is a foolish premise as there are lots of legal uses and I used to sell programmers before Nov 1998 and many of the buyers were wanting a ISO-7816 development system. The DSS programmers sold are MUCH better priced than many of the people like infineon or GemPlus are.

These programmers can basically program any ISO-7816 cards that conform to the specs. In fact its so mainstream today that Microsoft sell the Microsoft® Windows® Smart Card Toolkit at:

http://www.microsoft.com/catalog/di...10243&x=38&y=16

There is much info on other legal uses here and many universities and colleges (a good source for witnesses too) on this page:

http://www.legal-rights.org/sc-programmers.html

There are hundreds and even thousands of possible applications from simple security applications to much more complex Data Storage on a card such as many Provinces are looking at for their health cards. In fact most of these will now hold your entire medical history in a card that is the same size as a credit card.

There are many other potential applications and thousands of people are working on these and I would bet that more than half of them are using the inexpensive Programmers, unloopers and Emulators sold on DSS sites. Using the Emu allows these programs to be tested instead of having to use a actual smartcard. You simply read the EMU in a smartcard reader and that is the same as if it was on a actual card, some of which are expensive. Emulators were also used for eproms for many years and still are saving the actual programming of a device and erasing it in a ultra violet light eraser.

So these people make assumptions and accusations that just don't hold water.

A smart card programmer (person) to a teacher from a local University would be qualified in a court as an "Expert" and would make Dave and his people look silly. And most of these folk will do it for a very small fee as they often wish to be able to build up an expertise as an Expert in court. Believe me they will be needed more and more in the years to come.

Dave THINKS he owns the entire world of smart card technology but he is sadly mistaken.

Like many of the clients I sold to, many people want these for smartcard development that has nothing to do with TV. Furthermore it is NOT illegal to reverse engineer Daves smartcard in the USA and so long as you do not use the knowledge gained to STEAL TV you are doing NOTHING against the law. Ask your lawyer about that and you will get a surprise. Its simply not illegal to do that out of curiosity and to further your education on HOW security is done. You cannot copy their code and use it elsewhere but its often very simple to accomplish a similar effect using totally different code.

DirecTV® have EXTREME nerve in making these accusations and they wont stand up in court at all. They have to PROVE that you actually STOLE TV. And just HOW are they going to do that if you did not.

Furthermore without a search warrant and the discovery of hacked smartcards being USED to steal TV, just how would they prove anything unless you made an admission. Many of the customers I sold programmers to DID NOT have satellite dishes or DTV systems. Again how then could Dave prove it.

It is truly a shame that people are so intimidated with these ugly threatening letters but the bottom line is KEEP YOUR COOL and speak to a good lawyer. You will then learn that this is poppycock and your lawyer will take care of it.

You cannot be convicted of stealing TV in North America if you did not do that. And just HOW are DirecTV® going to PROVE that you did that unless you make an admission to that effect. They are SURE not getting a search warrant because you purchased an ISO -7816 programmer.

Bring in your expert to explain all the technology uses and you wont have a problem.

Bye the way, if you intended to do any of that but never got around to it, that is no crime IN America either. There are MILLIONS of Exercise machines in America and less than HALF of them are ever used. People have great intentions but then comes the reality of not having the time. The same goes for programmers and studying smartcards. And Judges can easily relate to that. We are all short of the time to do all the things we want to do.

So do NOT be intimidated by these B U L L S H I T DirecTV® letters, they are sent by telemarketing type lawyers who make a living by intimidating and threatening people. No self respecting lawyer would do that without proof. Get your lawyer to call them and tell them where to shove their lawsuit. If they were DUMB enough to file one and you have NOT stolen their TV signal, they are in for a VERY hard time in any reasonable court especially if you dont have one of those little satellite dishes that go up or down in a half hour. How could you steal Dave's signal without a dish. You cannot cach the signal in a paper bag I understand .

WE are NOT behind the iron curtain where they can have you convicted on just any trumped up charge.

I AM getting a little tired of saying this and I do have a LARGE section on the issue with over 20 links on legal-rights at this link:

http://www.legal-rights.org/DTVBOX.html



Now this is the thread..... http://www.dsschat.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120611

If you want more info go to www.legal-rights.org (has the most info available for this) or you can take a look at www.satlaw.org (same info)



Here are your choices:
1.) Ignore letter and wish it would go away
2.) Wait for second letter and get one step closer to a court date
3.) Ignore second letter
4.) Get summons
5.) Ignore summons OR scramble at last minute to try to find legal representation that can help you get out of this
6.) If you ignore summons, get upwards of a $10,000 fine and are forced to pay this (can't buy a car, get a loan...ect until this si delt with)

OR
1.) Recieved letter so you contact DTV and settle for the amount they request, no bargaining no excuses, you settle and pay PERIOD.

NOW, this is your other avenue:
1.) Recieved first letter and contact a lawyer
2.) Lawyer will deal with DTV
3.) Lawyer will give you choice to settle or to fight charges.
4.) Lawyer will fight for lower settlement or fight claims.
5.) Probably pay alot less for a settlement, or win in court and don't pay DTV.


These are your situations, unfortunately you are going to pay money...there is no way around it. You need to decide based on your feelings what the right course of action is. If you want to fight DTV, you need legal representation NOW! Not after the second letter, time is on your side right now, whereas later, you will be left scrambling and potentially jeopardizing your case....

Your call

[Retinula]

if it goes to court, which I would assume it likely will if you ignore the 1st and 2nd letters, of course DTV has to produce a preponderance of evidence to the judge that you are likely a signal pirate. But a preponderance of evidence (meaning that Daves arguments need to be just a little bit more believable than your arguments) shouldn't be hard for Dave to produce given his experts, investigators, etc.

Most importantly, what will certainly happen as soon as you try to fight in court is that Dave will ask you to make a statement UNDER OATH whether or not you stole satellite signals. You must respond to this question. If you lie, then you have committed perjury and then you have REAL troubles beyond just signal piracy. If you admit the truth and you did steal satellite signals then you will very likely pay much more than the settlement offer. Since you are posting in this forum I think you know the score about what ISO programmers can be used for and you likely do have something to be concerned about.

for me, I ignored the 1st letter (after conferring with lawyer) and then 1 month later received the 2nd. Now my lawyer is corresponding with Dave and I will eventually settle. I will not lie under oath and any decent lawyer would not allow you to do so. Also, I am not sure what kind of settlement offer Dave would make to anyone who blows off his letters and waits for a suit to be filed. My lawyer advises that oftentimes the terms of settlement get much steeper if you let the dispute go too far.

In the end it's your decision about how much risk you want to take. Do not be foolish and think these letters are just a joke. Dave is pissed. The value of his company is being diminished by widespread hacking. He is trying to sell/merge his company with Echostar and/or Murdoch for it's maximal economic value and he must do something.

[JD490]

Comes down to this if you have no problem with telling the truth in court, and have the funds to fight in court you shouldn't have any problem. Either you used the device to steal or you didn't. A suit can be filed against you for almost any reason they don't have to have proof. Now will that result in a victory only depends on what they can dig up in depositions and from investigation. Only a small number are sued at a time 10-15. Not sure how they make the determination on who gets sued, and who doesn't get sued. My attorney said it would cost me 10-15k just to get through discovery. Another 10-15k to go all the way through court. He also said he has had luck with them backing down when he sends a company letter head that they used the device for work related stuff.

[emtrman]

hw-girl, I'm waiting for my 2nd letter. I purchased 1 un-looper in march 01. I got my 1st letter 8/23/02, when I get the 2nd letter,and I fully expect to get one. I'll respond by asking some simple questions. 1-What is a satelite pirating device? 2-When did I use this device to steal a signal? They have to be able to answer my question. By the way, I have recently become a dtv customer in sept 02, to enjoy the nfl season. If they harrass me I will contact dtv and cancel my service sighting these harrassment letters as the main reason. Keep the faith people, think!!!! Unless you bought multiple pieces of these so-called pirating devices, how can they justify there means? I walked into a computer in mid-town Manhattan, and asked if they have smart card programers, they had boat loads!!! These are common devices..................................

[giveupdave]

Originally posted by emtrman
hw-girl, I'm waiting for my 2nd letter. I purchased 1 un-looper in march 01. I got my 1st letter 8/23/02, when I get the 2nd letter,and I fully expect to get one. I'll respond by asking some simple questions. 1-What is a satelite pirating device? 2-When did I use this device to steal a signal? They have to be able to answer my question. By the way, I have recently become a dtv customer in sept 02, to enjoy the nfl season. If they harrass me I will contact dtv and cancel my service sighting these harrassment letters as the main reason. Keep the faith people, think!!!! Unless you bought multiple pieces of these so-called pirating devices, how can they justify there means? I walked into a computer in mid-town Manhattan, and asked if they have smart card programers, they had boat loads!!! These are common devices..................................
I don't think they have to asnwer your questions untill they go to court. By you cancelling your sub with DTV isn't going to change anything. You should really get proper advice.

[razorburn]

HW-Girl:
"I just received my second letter this weekend. " How long did it take to get the second letter? Are you going to ignore this one too? Do they make different threats? THANKS!

It took exactly 4 weeks to receive the second letter, and they only gave me 10 days to reply (instead of 14 on the original). I went against the grain and called the firm. Initially I asked them two questions 1) What device was this? and then 2) If the lawyer realized that the device had other purposes? He gave me the date and company of the purchase (this was good, because I couldn't remember) and he answered "Yes" to the second question and ased me what I used the device for. I explained my purpose for the purchase. Now, they want proof that I used the device for other purposes, which I am working on.

I think the part which received the most attention was when I told them that I did not have DTV service at the time I purchased the device. If you do the same, watch everything you say because I could heard the guy typing information into the computer!

I will keep you posted.

[thepoet]

Originally posted by Retinula
... But a preponderance of evidence (meaning that Daves arguments need to be just a little bit more believable than your arguments) shouldn't be hard for Dave to produce given his experts, investigators, etc. ...

THAT is the most significant point about these cases. (And, I get the impression reading these posts, the least understood.) These are ALL civil cases, not criminal cases where DirecTV would have to submit proof beyond a reasonable doubt - a very tough sell to a jury. One further item that Retinula didn't mention is that in a criminal case, 12 jurors have to be persuaded to a unanimous decision for a conviction. In a civil case, merely a majority of an odd number of jurors (or the judge) who merely believe one side or the other. NO hung juries. The defendant either walks out scott-free or with a judgment pinned to his ass.

[tazdad]

be careful thepoet, what you are talking about depends on which state you are in. Not all states treat civil cases the same.

However you make a good point in that a perponderance is different than reasonable doubt. It is a lesser standard.

However, the lawsuit must still surpass summary judgement (if motioned for) that requires that given all facts Dave still cannot state a cause of action. That I think is the best strategic answer. I don't see how a cause of action can be sustained.

Regardless, good legal advice will not really be found here.

[JD490]

Razorburn, what kind of proof do they want? a letter or something? Did they explain what would satisfy there proof?

[Popcorn2]

I talked with my DirecTV representative this weekend, personal friend. He walked me through creating my Cease and Desist letter two weeks ago. My friend is rather high up on the chain with DirecTV as far an installers go, does Commercial units and teaches classes. We agreed that if you do not respond, they will think they have a Smuck they can intimidate and may file suit. They will figure you will not fight and they will get an easy default judgment.

Consult with an attorney if you like. I sent them a rather strongly worded Cease and Desist letter on Sept. 26, 02, Deadline to respond. Admit nothing, admit no wrong doing. If their going to file on you they will, and the odds are higher if you do not respond with a Cease and Desist Letter. I haven’t heard back from them yet but it’s only been a week.

[mrself_destruct]

I agree with you completely....you gotta play hardball...have your attorney DENY every allegation (even purchasing the equipment), threaten a counter-suit and make it clear you will fight (even if you wont).

At the very elast this will buy you more time as they go after easy pickings first.


Originally posted by Popcorn2
I talked with my DirecTV representative this weekend, personal friend. He walked me through creating my Cease and Desist letter two weeks ago. My friend is rather high up on the chain with DirecTV as far an installers go, does Commercial units and teaches classes. We agreed that if you do not respond, they will think they have a Smuck they can intimidate and may file suit. They will figure you will not fight and they will get an easy default judgment.

Consult with an attorney if you like. I sent them a rather strongly worded Cease and Desist letter on Sept. 26, 02, Deadline to respond. Admit nothing, admit no wrong doing. If their going to file on you they will, and the odds are higher if you do not respond with a Cease and Desist Letter. I haven’t heard back from them yet but it’s only been a week.