50,000,00 pirates cut off. [Archive] - Lounge0101 Discussion Forum

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Thor

October 1st, 2002, 12:31 PM

Got this from another site,although I find it hard to believe it would'nt shock me one bit..

Source: SkyReport

Hughes lowered subscriber guidance for its DirecTV unit, but raised EBITA figures for the satellite TV service.

Third quarter subscriber guidance was lowered to a range of 200,000 to 210,000 net additions, compared to a prior range of 250,000 to 300,000. Executives attributed the lowered guidance to higher than expected monthly churn, which was related to the replacement of old access cards. In addition, gross subscriber activations have been slightly below expectations, mostly due to a decline in consumer confidence resulting in softer sales at national consumer electronics retail outlets, executives said.
________________________________________________________________
Also during the quarter, about 50,000 active subscribers who were paying for basic service - but were believed to be receiving some services via illegally modified access cards - were disconnected from DirecTV, executives said.
_________________________________________________________________

DirecTV's third quarter EBITDA guidance was raised by $45 million to approximately $195 million, an increase attributed to the continued success with reducing the service's cost structure, improved monthly subscriber revenue and lower marketing costs associated with reduced subscriber projections

directvp4

October 1st, 2002, 01:17 PM

DirecTv Management is not the brightest group on the block! Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot. Save a nickel cost you a buck! Typical of current management style today. They do not care about tomorrow only today. As a stockholder in Hughes I am truly diappointed in this approach, it's no wonder my stock is way down with them. My stock is valued on the number of subscribers they gain-no gain, no up value in the stock. If I were a member of the Board of Directors I would have larry by his balls for this approach and terminate him immediately as well as the President of DirecTv for approving of this approach! As a stockholder I am incensed by this and plan on writing to the Board of Directors=F---ing idiots!!!!

Hi Directvp4,

This is publicity talk ONLY and they don't really do it. In fact they have been on raids with the RCMP in Canada where they cancel the dealer right away BUT NEVER CANCEL THE SUSCRIBER.

Now if they cancell the dealer because they became aware he was selling in Canada, guess where those customers are located. Every single one of them yet they turn NONE of these off. We have an extensive proof list for this going back several years now.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif
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orvil01

December 23rd, 2002, 04:18 PM

i honestly dont see how piracy hurts anyone, if they have a subscription great if not oh well. its not really costing them any money at all. who says that people would buy any of the stuff, or order the premium channels if they had to pay for it. so they really arent losing any money, well now they are because they are forcing suspected hackers to stop paying there subscriptions.

gunsmoke2

December 23rd, 2002, 07:24 PM

Cut down on piracy and loose revenue from subscribers at the same time. How many subscribers received a P4 card but never subscribed.

GS2

crownvic

December 23rd, 2002, 08:10 PM

This story kinda blows the original settlement in pieces.
It does'nt make sense that the original settlement would even have a clause that you subscribe when they have already cancelled suspected pirates. Dunno about some of these here business decisions.. :Z

BrainDamage

December 23rd, 2002, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by orvil01
i honestly dont see how piracy hurts anyone, if they have a subscription great if not oh well. its not really costing them any money at all. who says that people would buy any of the stuff, or order the premium channels if they had to pay for it. so they really arent losing any money, well now they are because they are forcing suspected hackers to stop paying there subscriptions.

Do you really beleive that? Yes, piracy DOES indeed hurt.

Let's just say, for example, that you start a new company selling subscriptions to a new satellite service. It cost you 1 million dollars to start (nice round number).

You have to spend $10,000 a month to operate your business (again just an easy to use number).

You sell subs for $50 a month. That means you have to sell 200 subs just to break even.

What if instead of selling 200 subs, you sold 175 subs because 25 people were pirating your signal.

Do you still think those 25 people are not hurting anyone? Really?!?

Don't fool yourself. Pirating does indeed cost money to the business, and the subscribers.. why? Because if you don't get those extra 25 subs, then you raise the rate for the other 175 people.

It does not matter that DTV may have more than enough to cover their expenses and make a profit.. every pirate is profit lost. Profit lost is going to be passed on to the subscriber.

Get it? Good! Now if you will excuse me, I have to see what is on Free Per View tonight.

gandalf_thegrey

December 23rd, 2002, 08:26 PM

Well it has its ups and downs. I was thinking of subbing a couple years ago, and dish was cheaper than DTV. After looking into the testing, I decided that DTV is the way to go.
Now I Probably would stick with cable if it weren't for the testing fase of Satellite.
Now am I causing dave to lose money? I wouldn't be buying the Free per views anyway.

RiseStar

December 24th, 2002, 03:14 AM

Piracy does have a large negative factor on a business. However it is something that is hard to really grasp the calibre of.

The satellite companies when in court or in press releases will tally up the maximum total of possible programs watched illicitly, but in reality if you were subscribing instead, more than likely you would NOT pay for all those services anyways so there is no real loss in some of their claims.

Where they really lose their shirts is when people pirate their system without contributing at all. Fortunately DTV got wise a couple years ago and made it so it is now difficult to do without some sort of subscribed image.

Some companies, like GI in the C band days profitted immensely off of piracy.
They were the big winners bar none as they had no programming services to lose. Echostar COULD potentially do the same, but only if they stop distributing IRDs for a loss.

The best scam of all time is one where you allow others to believe that they are scamming you.

Originally posted by BrainDamage
Do you really beleive that? Yes, piracy DOES indeed hurt.

Let's just say, for example, that you start a new company selling subscriptions to a new satellite service. It cost you 1 million dollars to start (nice round number).

You have to spend $10,000 a month to operate your business (again just an easy to use number).

You sell subs for $50 a month. That means you have to sell 200 subs just to break even.

What if instead of selling 200 subs, you sold 175 subs because 25 people were pirating your signal.

Do you still think those 25 people are not hurting anyone? Really?!?

Don't fool yourself. Pirating does indeed cost money to the business, and the subscribers.. why? Because if you don't get those extra 25 subs, then you raise the rate for the other 175 people.

It does not matter that DTV may have more than enough to cover their expenses and make a profit.. every pirate is profit lost. Profit lost is going to be passed on to the subscriber.

Get it? Good! Now if you will excuse me, I have to see what is on Free Per View tonight.

GhostDog

December 24th, 2002, 04:50 AM

the big losers are the ppv rights holders like don king or the wwe for instance... directv gives them a % of the gate on major ppv... the rights holders assume all associated expenses so no real loss to directv, only possible gains....

jnix

December 24th, 2002, 05:23 AM

Guys, this does not make much sense, Cut the hand off that feeds you..

SHWAGNES

December 24th, 2002, 08:54 AM

If Dave was smart about piracy and then use it to there advantage the
profit margin would be immense compared to now. So Dave listen up lol!

1.Change the law on pirating your signal to where it's not illegal for non commercial purposes i.e. end users\hobbyist not targeted.
2.Make damn sure the access cards cannot be cloned (ever) also have every card that is still not subbed i.e. still in the box at Best Buy etc. black listed until activated , this way no 3M code can enable video until the CAM is subbed ,have limited space where executable code can run.
3.Implement a counter to where every time a boot loader is active it increments, if the IRd doesn't call in once a month to check current purchases 745 the .bin until it does call in . This will force the pirates to keep activating a boot loader and restore the .bin to ditch the purchases and or revealing the 3M code , kill the card after the counter in incremented xx times . Make damn sure the end user is aware that there has to be a hard line attached once a month period no exceptions , set up the IRD to keep trying to send a INS5E (I believe) after the 30 days or so has expired so no signal has to be present to call in and clear purchases or if the end user has to remove the IRD from RV etc. to a place where a hard line can be attached etc.
4.Make a statement if your going to try to pirate our signal then be ready to purchase new cards, because were going to try and make damn sure you don't pirate our signal ...

This can work because now every pirate will have to have a minimum subb, no subb no video period. Free tvers are not very smart and always post the code on the net just like our current hero P52 does, as will others after he\she stops, then get serious about CMD 82's (the talk about legit subbs always being affected is crap) constantly change the tiers, kill the cards running 3M code and out of date tiers period. If a subscriber wants 10 cards shipped sure no problem there all going to have to be activated first and then 20.00 to 40.00 US a pop on top for each card shipped .
Add more ethnic programming so there is more demand for the service make it to where it has to have it's own tier etc. So it's not included in basic service invite piracy so to speak
These are just basic ideas that will need revisions but Dave can turn profits with piracy happening even with pirates having to replace access cards regularly due to them modifying the cards code. I know that an extra 40.00 every so often wouldn’t be no big deal if Dave whacked my hacked card that I knew if I modified could possibly get killed regularly. People will always try to beat the system and try get more for their buck and or something for nothing, use it to your advantage let them think there getting more for their buck ...

Jeet

December 24th, 2002, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by SHWAGNES
If Dave was smart about piracy and then use it to there advantage the
profit margin would be immense compared to now. So Dave listen up lol!

1.Change the law on pirating your signal to where it's not illegal for non commercial purposes i.e. end users\hobbyist not targeted.

I am sorry but I have to pick it that one statement, "hobbyist". I am having a hard time trying to think of another crime where people feel they are not really breaking the law because they are "hobbyists". When was the last time you felt justified in committing a murder, selling drugs, etc. because you only did it as a hobby.

REDx

December 24th, 2002, 11:30 AM

SHWAGNES

December 24th, 2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Jeet
I am sorry but I have to pick it that one statement, "hobbyist". I am having a hard time trying to think of another crime where people feel they are not really breaking the law because they are "hobbyists". When was the last time you felt justified in committing a murder, selling drugs, etc. because you only did it as a hobby.

Because were not talking about murder and or selling drugs ... This is a white collar crime were not talking about being a threat to society etc. There are several people who do it just for the learning experience wide open TV is a by product ... I feel that DTV could capitalize on piracy to an extent so if your not selling it commercially then why have such a campaign against end users i.e. 100K
worth of letters etc. They need to make it really difficult and make damn sure everyone needs their own .bin and have SI step it up the way it goes now it's a joke with only 235 or so CMD 82's in rotation .... Think about how many .bins are shared the number I feel is staggering , just having each person with their own .bin will increase revenues with out having to possible sue end users or extort
monies with settlements etc. DSS has always been a business DTV needs to manage it better, so what if the access card is compromised if so then so be it now capitalize on it and make a profit from end users trying to get more for their buck ...Legit subbs that the access card has never been out of the IRDS will be a small % of the CSR phone issues it will be the dishonest ones . For example look how many post there are just here at this site about the letter and what to do excluding the 2 to 3 people who did buy a legit ISO device other then to hack Daves signal, all they had to do was leave the access card in the IRD and there wouldn't have ever been a need to order such devices from sites that sold devices for the sole purpose of hacking DTV's signal.

gunsmoke2

December 24th, 2002, 01:25 PM

There are several people who do it just for the learning experience wide open TV is a by product

What do you mean there are several ? just a few or hundreds of thousands. You can wide open it by purchasing versus stealing. But who wants to pay for it when you can steal it.

GS2

gunsmoke2

December 24th, 2002, 01:34 PM

Some companies, like GI in the C band days profitted immensely off of piracy.
They were the big winners bar none as they had no programming services to lose. Echostar COULD potentially do the same, but only if they stop distributing IRDs for a loss.

I would venture to guess that BullExpressVu is a big winner since they close their eyes to piracy on their system. Even the coalition they belong to are mad at them.

If they sent out a destructive ecm there probably wouldn't be enough machines to replace the damage ones.

GS2

gandalf_thegrey

December 24th, 2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by gunsmoke2
What do you mean there are several ? just a few or hundreds of thousands. You can wide open it by purchasing versus stealing. But who wants to pay for it when you can steal it.

GS2

And I watch a lot less TV now than I did before I started testing.
:)

hognutz

December 24th, 2002, 02:21 PM

Stealing may be wrong but it is part of society. How many of you people would leave money just laying around and think well it is ilegal to steal it so I have nothing to worry about.

Every time I have had someone steal from me I have changed something. For examlpe an alarm on my car becasue someone jacked my stereo.

Now hear we have direct tv. They can wine and cry all they want about pirates but to me it is up to them to prevent the signal theft. To think that someone won't hack their signal casue there not suposed to seems retarted in my opinion. Your are not suposed to drive over the speed limit and I proably do that every day. I purchased all my equiment fair and square. The bottom line is I would not sub to dtv cause they are not the cheapest. Since I am hacking they at least sold an IRD and dish to me. Maybe I am just a bad person but I don't see it as that big of deal. They beam the signal out and if you are smart enought to recieve I say game on. When I read stuff that they put out I just laugh.

The price of a platinum sub is just as big a crime as hacking in my opinion.

orvil01

December 25th, 2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by gandalf_thegrey
Well it has its ups and downs. I was thinking of subbing a couple years ago, and dish was cheaper than DTV. After looking into the testing, I decided that DTV is the way to go.
Now I Probably would stick with cable if it weren't for the testing fase of Satellite.
Now am I causing dave to lose money? I wouldn't be buying the Free per views anyway.

exactly my point, i subscribed got tired of the service the system sat in a closet for 2 years, until i heard i could get it for free, now if i couldnt have gotten it for free, i can garuntee that 600$ DSS system would still be sitting in my closet today.

smegma

December 25th, 2002, 07:39 PM

ya gotta love some of the analogies used for the "theft" argument. Comparing a sneek peek at TV to capital crimes seems a bit disproportionate. If my neighbor plants a large shade tree in his back yard to sit under during the hot summer days, am I stealing if that same tree casts a shadow into my back yard and I move my chair over to enjoy it too? Even if that tree cost a billion dollars, it would be hard to argue the neighbor was losing money because of the shade benefiting a portion of my yard too. If it was that tangible, it would seem an argument could be made that the constant bombardment of fugitive satellite signals was imposing upon my freedoms. Of course you would need to have aluminum foil wrapped around your head if you wanted anyone to take your argument seriously.

SHWAGNES

December 26th, 2002, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by gunsmoke2
What do you mean there are several ? just a few or hundreds of thousands. You can wide open it by purchasing versus stealing. But who wants to pay for it when you can steal it.

GS2

I was referring to hobbyist who can code and don't have any desire to post a working 3M to the public :cool:

condmca

December 26th, 2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by orvil01
exactly my point, i subscribed got tired of the service the system sat in a closet for 2 years, until i heard i could get it for free, now if i couldnt have gotten it for free, i can garuntee that 600$ DSS system would still be sitting in my closet today.

Exactly. When dave claims his millions in losses, he's assuming all these testers would actually pay him over paying some other media delivery system like cable or dish or ethernet or nothing at all.

Eugene2

December 26th, 2002, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by BrainDamage
Do you really beleive that? Yes, piracy DOES indeed hurt.

Let's just say, for example, that you start a new company selling subscriptions to a new satellite service. It cost you 1 million dollars to start (nice round number).

You have to spend $10,000 a month to operate your business (again just an easy to use number).

You sell subs for $50 a month. That means you have to sell 200 subs just to break even.

What if instead of selling 200 subs, you sold 175 subs because 25 people were pirating your signal.

Do you still think those 25 people are not hurting anyone? Really?!?

Don't fool yourself. Pirating does indeed cost money to the business, and the subscribers.. why? Because if you don't get those extra 25 subs, then you raise the rate for the other 175 people.

It does not matter that DTV may have more than enough to cover their expenses and make a profit.. every pirate is profit lost. Profit lost is going to be passed on to the subscriber.

Get it? Good! Now if you will excuse me, I have to see what is on Free Per View tonight.

I laughed at the reply. I run my own business and I do not count on projected revenue figures. This is the problem with corporate world who figures people owe them something. We as a free nation are free to buy whatever we see fit. DTV and other big corporations who blame loss of revenue on mythical monies that were never there to begin with and probably would never be there deserve only to lose even more money.

In effect what you are proposing is starting a company and demanding people buy your product. This because you invested all this capital??

In reality smart businesses are run not on assumptions but on factual accounting.

My momma always said don't go counting your chickens before they is hatched.

Badboy7357

December 26th, 2002, 05:53 PM

I am new to this forum, but know enough to make my stuff work. I may of missed a post or two, but I tried to read all of them before posting this.
The number of "pirates" vs subscribers and the cut into profits has me thinking. Granted, there are X number of "pirates" out there. Out of that number, how many of them are in areas where it is illegal to subscribe anyway? If someone is watching something for free that they can't pay for if they wanted to, can you really say that is hurting the profit line? If you think about it, if 80% of the theft of signal is in Canada and 20% is in the US, is that a major impact? The 80% can't pay if they wanted to anyway. I have no idea where the majority of the "theft of signal" happens, but it is strange how someone who can not legally purchase the product can be fined for getting it anyway. Lets just say that if all hackers in areas where they could purchase were stopped only leaving those in areas where they could not purchase active. Does that hurt the profit line? They can't pay anyway. I once read somewhere that for every Microsoft license there are 10 un-licensed users and Microsoft seems to be doing pretty well.
I fully respect a company going after people who "steal" but if it is in the air and someone can't buy it anyways, how can they see that as stealing?
Just an opinion from someone who just doesn't get it.....

Badboy

Eugene2

December 26th, 2002, 06:12 PM

The big "question de jour" is how does one lose money they didn't make to begin with?

condmca

December 26th, 2002, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by gandalf_thegrey
And I watch a lot less TV now than I did before I started testing.
:)

My alias says, same here! who could possibly have the time for tv with all this technology to play with? Only a true technology enthusiest/hobbyist , would take time away from all that tv to learn this stuff if it wasn't simply classified as interesting and harmless to a recognizable proportion of our capitalist society. judgement, defendant, no damages awarded to the big rich company. instead, you pay the people for needlessly causing damages to families in some instances, etc...:gg