Dave's allegations are legally unsound...

[freetv4mee]

Imagine yourself in court one day being sued for signal theft:

Judge: "Prosecution has presented evidence that you purchased said equipment, used in almost all circumstances to steal satellite signals. Did you ever purchase any such equipment used in satellite theft?"
Defendant: "I did purchase items a, b and c now that I've seen the prosecution’s evidence, but nothing was ever used in the theft of anything whatsoever your honor."
Judge: "For what other purpose could you have used said equipment if not to steal this company's satellite signal?"
Defendant: "With all due respect your honor, I don’t believe that said company actually owns my end of their satellite transmission."

I think if we look more closely into dave’s allegations, we’ll see that they’re based on an assumption, a continuing misconception, that both ends of what originate from some general motors’ satellite in the heavens, belong solely to dave. This begs the question of who will “both-ends” belong to tomorrow if our legislators allow Echo-Charlie to acquire dave? Charlie’s potential ownership of dave’s transmitter would do nothing to establish ownership of the receiving end of any signal the way I see it. It would only further establish who owns the transmitter above.
This hypothetical is meant to illustrate the basic absurdity of dave’s claim in the first place: that any of us are actually “stealing” some privately owned transmission sent publicly through our airwaves.

I remind everybody that the receiving end of anything in our airwaves is and always has been free. It’s the basis of our commercial market for which television was founded. Let’s not forget that all major corporations at one time paid top dollar to deliver their commercials over our public airwaves, and they still do today, despite these additional satellite subscription fees most of us pay!
This being the case, every end-user in here must help debunk this false belief that we’re foremost guilty of signal theft because of any purchase whatsoever, and must therefore prove our innocence. It’s just not the way the law is supposed to work in a free country.



Dave’s letters = one big civil-suit waiting to happen
…let the moles poke holes, I’ll respond later ;-)

[rob13572468]

Oh yes, I can see it now, " Yes, you're honor, we stipulate to the facts that the defendant owns his end of the receiving equipment, we also stipulate that owning this equipment is not illegal. What we are talking about is decrypting the signal and stealing our client, dave's intellectual property, which is very much illegal. Further, as we can all see, the defendant has freely admitted to posessing this equipment which our (highly paid) expert witness has repeatedly stated can only be used to steal our signals. "

then later on ".... and may I also remind the court that the evidence presented clearly demonstrates that the defendant IS the same person as 'Freetv4mee', who logged on to the pirates den, a known pay tv hacking web site and has not one, not two, but 23 posts, one of which is even a clearly defined essay on how he would attempt to deceive this honorable court during this very case..."



how is that for a hypothetical court situation. Remember that unless you have been very careful, (and we both know that you havent) that your screenname, and consequently your IP resolve back to you, and daves lawyers are going to figure that out and now you need to explain to a bunch of conservative jurors (and a judge) that they should believe that you werent using those devices to steal tv even though your screenname is 'freetv4mee'.

Yep, thats going to go real well!

[Mirror]

Although, I agree morally it does not seem right that DirecTV can and do charge you for a satellite signal that trespass on your lands in you yard or on your roof. The fact remains that it is illegal in the USA to decrypt any signal that lands on your property without authorization.
The question that I do have, is about the statement below. How would this happen? Does DirecTV have access to the I.P. numbers of the posters on this site? Not doubting your word, just curious how this might happen.
Originally posted by rob13572468
consequently your IP resolve back to you, and daves lawyers are going to figure that out

[directvp4]

Very good Question Mirror!! I too would like a answer to that one.

[giveupdave]

"Defendant: "With all due respect your honor, I don’t believe that said company actually owns my end of their satellite transmission"

The Judge would laugh at you and rule in favour of DTV.
The signal belongs to DTV. You don't have "your end of the signal"

[jones07]

Dss hacking forum Lawyers will cost you
your bank account everytime :)

If you live in the USA and your a member of this forum and you paid for dss hacking Hardware.And you get a DTV letter STOP BITCHING. you knew what you doing was illegal. Time to pay the piper. I'm in the same boat. If I get the letter I will get the best deal I can and pay up. Stop looking for the legal loophold.

[Mirror]

Perhaps a person is on this site, posting, and asking questions, simple has an interest in understanding the legal ramifications of purchasing an iso-7816 smartcard reader/writer. Perhaps a person did purchase this device from a questionable site for reasons other than those you imply. Perhaps a person is getting threatening letters from DirecTV. Should we deny them their interest? I suggest if the shoe does not fit, one should not be forced to wear it. Sadly, it seems that in a land that lives by “you are innocent until proven guilty”, it should really be written to say, we live in a land where, “You are innocent until proven indigent”.

[GhostDog]

Originally posted by rob13572468


then later on ".... and may I also remind the court that the evidence presented clearly demonstrates that the defendant IS the same person as 'Freetv4mee', who logged on to the pirates den, a known pay tv hacking web site and has not one, not two, but 23 posts, one of which is even a clearly defined essay on how he would attempt to deceive this honorable court during this very case..."

how can they get his IP from here?


This is the message i get when trying to get his IP:

vBulletin Message
You do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
1. You do not have permission to access the page that you were trying to.
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account.
Logged in user: GhostDog [logout]

[directvp4]

Remember it is a MOD who made the statement, maybe he can answer HOW can Dave get the IP address from this site? As I stated earlier-GOOD QUESTION!!!

[SammyBoy]

Is it possible that the RCMP will raid the Pirates Den one day and turn over ALL info to Dave?

[REDx]

now that we have stepped into
legal thoery. how about a counter
suite based upon constitutional law.

your honor: due to the fact that DTV
has decided to sue me for signal theft.
they claim to be damaged to the sum of
10,000 dollars because of said theft.
i claim dtv is getting free use of my
property. he is doing this by beaming
his signal on it without compensation
to myself. by his own admission he needs
to do so. in order to SELL his service
to 3,000,000 customers in my SPOT BEAM
area. i further contend that DTV has
the technical capability to not use my
property. as demostrated by his spot
beam local service. i also understand
to use spot beam service to each customer
would be cost prohibative. i would ask the
court to award ME 1 dollar per customer
per year for said use. as the court is
aware it is unconstitutional without due
process to seize a right of way on or thru
my property.the constitution further states
i must be compensated for the use of it.not
even the government can seize it without
compensation.so i would say for past violations
of my property rights i am entitled to 3,000,000
per year for the past 5 years and 3,000,000 there
after. or i demand that DTV stops illegaly useing
my property immediately until the courts can
determine reasonable compensation.

before you laugh. if you check you will find a ton of
case law that supports this position. most of it has to
do with AT&T and the railroads.

[PB&J]

"Still interested in how they can get my IP and personal info"

from your internet service provider

[SammyBoy]

Originally posted by PB&J
"Still interested in how they can get my IP and personal info"

from your internet service provider

But the ISP will not have your PD user name. So how would DTV get that?

Would DirecTv be able to get a court order forcing your ISP to turn over it's logs of your surfing?

How long are ISP's required to keep these logs of individual surfing?

[ex-subscriber]

Originally posted by To The Real King!!
But because you say that there is no honor among thieves, I guess that you just admitted that you are one and don't be surprised if they check your IP and you have to face this admission when you get to court. DirecTV® are here and they check every post and when people make admissions such as you did then their proof becomes much stronger when they get to court.

I hope people realize this and should NEVER make any admissions here that they are not afraid of making in a court of law.

I am not trying to scare you but just let you know what you just did and give you the opportunity to revise that if that is not what you mean.

Originally posted by GhostDog
TTRK, how do they check the IPs of members here?

Originally posted by To The Real King!!
Hi Ghostdog,

I am certainly not going to reveal that here but its not difficult to do.

You use and know this software so I suggest you play around with it. And no I am not talking about the logging that sites do as a matter of course. You log IP's on your site too.

Anyhow believe me they also know how to do it and know all the hacks to vBulletin and you know where they got them. From vBulletin themselves.

Don't give their abilities too little credit Ghostdog, they come late at night, collect all the IP's and its several people who do that.

As you probably know I am up all knight and I have a way to see all users who are logged at anytime I want. I saw them (3 people) doing this late at night on Innermatrix and one other site I prefer not to mention (not vcipher) but a site where I am not even an admin.

So take my word, they do it all the time and other admins have seen it too.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrkblack.gif

Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!

[SammyBoy]

Originally posted by ex-subscriber


I now have a better understanding, thanks.

[joleee]

Anonymous proxy servers should solve the IP snooping theory. There are a ----load of them out there on the web.

[Mirror]

Originally posted by TTRK
Anyhow believe me they also know how to do it and know all the hacks to vBulletin and you know where they got them. From vBulletin themselves.

Don't give their abilities too little credit Ghostdog, they come late at night, collect all the IP's and its several people who do that.

As you probably know I am up all knight and I have a way to see all users who are logged at anytime I want. I saw them (3 people) doing this late at night on Innermatrix and one other site I prefer not to mention (not vcipher) but a site where I am not even an admin.

So take my word, they do it all the time and other admins have seen it too.
It would be interesting to see them bring information collected in this manner to court. It would seem to me that they would be violating the same statue their trying to enforce.

[SammyBoy]

Originally posted by Mirror
It would be interesting to see them bring information collected in this manner to court. It would seem to me that they would be violating the same statue their trying to enforce.

They are very ruthless and have neither honor nor shame.

[rob13572468]

Originally posted by directvp4
Remember it is a MOD who made the statement, maybe he can answer HOW can Dave get the IP address from this site? As I stated earlier-GOOD QUESTION!!!

ok guys.. stop being so paranoid... No mod of this site is going to give any information to dave about your preferences, nor do i think that dave's lawyers would even bother trying to get that info from us.

At any rate, they would not need to... If daves investigator wants to see where a potential respondant is going while he is on the internet, they can very easily monitor all of the requests being sent out over the internet for info by anyone not doing a very good job covering their bases. Remember that the internet is a public entity and the IP system was not designed to keep private where you go and what you do on the internet. In fact there are companies that do just that and are employed by the major music/video companies to gather evidence and prosecute DMCA related cases. It is no secret that they do this by finding targets and then monitor their activites (like file downloads) and then use that as evidence.

To be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if they have not already gotten records of thousands targets this way already... I'm really surprised that you guys had not considered this; everyone here should have an understanding of how data moves across the internet, and dave has definately proved himself capable of such tactics so it should not be a stretch to think that he would use them...

[PB&J]

"But the ISP will not have your PD user name. So how would DTV get that?"
they cannot but the fact that you are here is very well documented ...ask your isp to show you your logs

"Would DirecTv be able to get a court order forcing your ISP to turn over it's logs of your surfing?"
i suppose it is possible,might not look good at a deposition ..

[Retinula]

freetv4me said:

-------
Imagine yourself in court one day being sued for signal theft:

Judge: "Prosecution has presented evidence that you purchased said equipment, used in almost all circumstances to steal satellite signals. Did you ever purchase any such equipment used in satellite theft?"
Defendant: "I did purchase items a, b and c now that I've seen the prosecution’s evidence, but nothing was ever used in the theft of anything whatsoever your honor."
-------

I like your argument for academic reasons. Nonetheless if you lie to the court during discovery or during trial by stating that you didn't pirate satellite signals when you in fact did, then you are in real deep do-do if Dave can prove you did with a preponderance of evidence (not beyond a resonable doubt but with just a little more of a believable argument than yours). What if you have a dish up but you aren't a subscriber. What if you bought multiple theft devices-- are you going to say you were just testing the USPS delivery times? What if one of their PI's talks to your neighbors about whether or not you get satellite programming? Are you really willing to lie under oath? That my friend is a felony and carries much larger penalties than Dave's civil action.

I agree-- I don't like this and I want someone to hurt Dave bad. But if you did pirate signals then face the music and settle up. I am, begrudgingly.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Folks,

I am really amazed that people are asking the kinds of questions you people are asking. I have said for 4 YEARS now that the NET is NOT anonymous.

If they can get your ISP then they will get the PORT you are on and the time you were using that port. The PORT + the phone line. From that they will know your PD username.

Alternatively they can attach a cookie to a specific user name, locate his home ISP and then the port. Same Result.

People I used to own an ISP and believe me there are many, MANY ways of getting this info. You will just have to believe me since I am not going to take half the night and tell you how to hack ISP's or track people. Its EASY for a knowledgeable person to do and if you wont believe me then carry on.

Remember that EVEN if it were illegal for DTV's experts or the authorities to do that (and I do not believe it is) that would not even slow them down. They will act as UNSCRUPULOUSLY as hey need to. They believe they are above the law.

I have been shown posts in courts and in depositions and while they know who I am they would have no trouble tracking me anyhow so I do KNOW that they do it.

I have said it for about 4 years so a search on the word anonymous will find many iterations of what I have said.

People with names like FREETV4ME or any such name are DEAD if they go into court. They are lost before they start. I even saw one idiot with the name I-steal-TV and if he ever gets caught he is as good as convicted before he starts defending, He is a smart ass because I told him this and he laughed it off. But he wont laugh if he ever gets raided. And he may as well plead guilty because with a name like that they will charge him criminally and get an easy conviction. They want a guy like that to pay proceeds of crime. He either has to say yes he steals TV or if not that he is a liar. Either way he is DONE. As a LIAR he wont be believed or if he steals TV then he s guilty. Dont do that foolishness giving a mark against you before you start.

Do NOT assume any anonymity here and do NOT EVER say anything you do not want brought up in court.

Also why do people come up with these crazy schemes because even people with a GOOD and REALISTIC defence (not the airwaves are free) will not defend the suit. If anyone does defend, I hope they have a reasonable argument and not some cockamamy reason like that one. If you are not reasonable with others at least do not fool yourselfhttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrkblack.gif

Thanks & Good Luck,
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/rotate_rib.gif
To The REAL King!!

Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/satelliterights.gif
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/freedomblack.gif

Our Deepest Condolences one year later too (http://www.legal-rights.org/condolences.html) <-- Click here Please


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[freetv4mee]

I have a GREAT SCREEN NAME!...and my eyes aren't emerald either, for those of you wondering ;-)

Here's a thought, maybe freetv4mee is meant to imply exactly what it implies. Maybe the fact it's a screen name only recently used, and not tied to any other computer, should be telling in itself.
Maybe the fact that I CHOOSE to not hide behind multiple firewalls whenever I post here should be equally as telling.
Maybe I'm hoping microsoft, in addition to some quartermaster co-opted by dave, sells me out too, based on micro's knowledge of who I am and my EXACT computer address.

Maybe, just maybe I'm asking dave to prove my guilt, beyond his "preponderance of evidence."
Maybe, just maybe I'm capable of forcing this issue beyond that of some judge eager to make attorneys ON BOTH SIDES happy.
Maybe, just maybe dave's irresponsibly in sponsering law firms to inflict mental anguish on people is nearing an end.
Maybe, just maybe...but only time will tell...

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by Mirror
The fact remains that it is illegal in the USA to decrypt any signal that lands on your property without authorization.


Yes, and in IRAQ, it's illegal to receive Al Jazeera television too.

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by giveupdave
"Defendant: "With all due respect your honor, I don’t believe that said company actually owns my end of their satellite transmission"

The Judge would laugh at you and rule in favour of DTV.
The signal belongs to DTV. You don't have "your end of the signal"

Really? You sure of this???

I guess time will tell...


Another post from freetv4mee...anyone read miranda rights to this person yet?

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by jones07

you knew what you doing was illegal. Time to pay the piper. I'm in the same boat. If I get the letter I will get the best deal I can and pay up. Stop looking for the legal loophold.

To those of us who have yet to incriminate ourselves by way of capitulation, it's absolutely NOT too late to find the legal loopholes here...there's plenty of holes to exploit if people would just stop giving in so casually.



Another post from freetv4mee...anyone read miranda rights to this person yet?

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by directvp4
Remember it is a MOD who made the statement, maybe he can answer HOW can Dave get the IP address from this site? As I stated earlier-GOOD QUESTION!!!


It would appear as though dave has successfully co-opted the big players in this hobby these past 12 months, eh? After all, dave has the mods' addresses too doesn't he? Can anyone say plea bargain???

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by rob13572468
ok guys.. stop being so paranoid... No mod of this site is going to give any information to dave about your preferences, nor do i think that dave's lawyers would even bother trying to get that info from us.

At any rate, they would not need to... If daves investigator wants to see where a potential respondant is going while he is on the internet, they can very easily monitor all of the requests being sent out over the internet for info by anyone not doing a very good job covering their bases. Remember that the internet is a public entity and the IP system was not designed to keep private where you go and what you do on the internet. In fact there are companies that do just that and are employed by the major music/video companies to gather evidence and prosecute DMCA related cases. It is no secret that they do this by finding targets and then monitor their activites (like file downloads) and then use that as evidence.

To be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if they have not already gotten records of thousands targets this way already... I'm really surprised that you guys had not considered this; everyone here should have an understanding of how data moves across the internet, and dave has definately proved himself capable of such tactics so it should not be a stretch to think that he would use them...

I would love to see dave use my freedom of information against me. The day we're too afraid of posting here is the day the internet stops working.


Dave: "Multiple posts, same address...hmmmmmm I think we got him!!!"
Yes folks, dave knows who I am and will likely find information about anybody he deems threatening to his convincingly successful campaign of intimidation.

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by Mirror
It would be interesting to see them bring information collected in this manner to court. It would seem to me that they would be violating the same statue their trying to enforce.

Are you sure you want to "go against the grain" here?
Your point is valid and appreciated!

[giveupdave]

Originally posted by freetv4mee
I have a GREAT SCREEN NAME!...and my eyes aren't emerald either, for those of you wondering ;-)

Here's a thought, maybe freetv4mee is meant to imply exactly what it implies. Maybe the fact it's a screen name only recently used, and not tied to any other computer, should be telling in itself.
Maybe the fact that I CHOOSE to not hide behind multiple firewalls whenever I post here should be equally as telling.
Maybe I'm hoping microsoft, in addition to some quartermaster co-opted by dave, sells me out too, based on micro's knowledge of who I am and my EXACT computer address.

Maybe, just maybe I'm asking dave to prove my guilt, beyond his "preponderance of evidence."
Maybe, just maybe I'm capable of forcing this issue beyond that of some judge eager to make attorneys ON BOTH SIDES happy.
Maybe, just maybe dave's irresponsibly in sponsering law firms to inflict mental anguish on people is nearing an end.
Maybe, just maybe...but only time will tell...

Maybe you just don't have the intelligence to understand

[Salty Jizm]

Originally posted by giveupdave
Maybe you just don't have the intelligence to understand

Maybe he is trying to pick a fight??? I say "Go to it man!" But I sure hope he is loaded for bear!

[freetv4mee]

Originally posted by To The Real King!!
I am really amazed that people are asking the kinds of questions you people are asking. I have said for 4 YEARS now that the NET is NOT anonymous.

People with names like FREETV4ME or any such name are DEAD if they go into court. They are lost before they start. I even saw one idiot with the name I-steal-TV and if he ever gets caught he is as good as convicted before he starts defending, He is a smart ass because I told him this and he laughed it off. But he wont laugh if he ever gets raided.

I chose my screen name appropriately for my intentions here on this board. Personally, I'd be pleased as punch if dave chose to raid my house on "suspision of signal theft." In a time when law enforcement must apply all of its resources to this current war, American and (edit/remove :o ) people would not stand for law enforcement acting at the behest of some near-monopoly corporation. The day dave begins raiding the homes of individuals is the day dave's stock plummets!

[DoctorNik]

Canadian people would not stand for law enforcement acting at the behest of some near-monopoly corporation.

You should do some more reading about Canada,,, BEV has the government in their back pocket.. has for awhile,,, and NO ONE (regular joe canadian citizen) could care less... These 'near monopoly' corporations are petitioning the RCMP to act,, on Canadians,, who are watching 'American' satellite tv... and it will more than likely happen,,

[gunsmoke2]

I'd be pleased as punch if dave chose to raid my house on "suspision of signal theft."


I have had a search warrant executed actually four of them. Its the worst nightmare experience and anyone I know who had the same will tell you the same. If they get a warrant to raid your house they can destroy parts of your home while searching for whatever. Technically your under arrest while the warrant is being executed.


They can take items like electronics that are not part of the search. They always get away with it because it fits into the category. They will take all your computers I got mined return about a year and a half later. They are given alot of time on their investigation


It won't be DTV but law enforcement and its something you never want.


GS2