How to safely get out of the hobby... [Archive]

John_Corbin

February 12th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Looking for some advice about safely getting out of this hobby. Specifically, I knew some of the guys listed on the latest FBI reports being posted around the dss world. I wrote code with some of them, however, never released anything as "freeware" or sold anything. But I'm sure, worst case scenerio, there were emails of mine were sitting on the PCs of those raided that certainly mentioned HU circumvention techniques. Obviously, i'm posting under an anonymous name and IP(s).

I have no desire to participate in this any longer, but have worries about what I should do (besides of course get rid of all equipment..etc). My gut tells me that it would be best just to move on and forget about it, but I'm also thinking that *maybe* contacting DTV and informing them that I have quit could prevent me from being on their next raid list. Waiving the white flag in front of the enemy obviously could get me shot.

My case (hacker calling it quits) was certainly the goal of "dave" in the recent charges brought against fellow hackers. I'd like to think that mine (and others) openly stepping down would be good enough.

Any advice? Specifically, I'm sure there are some lawyers and other individuals more familiar with dave's law tactics who have some good advice.

Great thanks in advance,
"John"

PS. If this is the incorrect forum for this, feel free to move it.

mouse01

February 13th, 2003, 12:17 AM

My advice to you and anyone who feels they are on D's next hit list is to spend some money and cover your tracks. First things first. There is no such thing as deleting or encrypting files so they can not be read. The FBI has ways to read your HDD even after a format. That being said get a new HDD. They are cheap. Either destroy your old one or hide the thing untill you feel safe. You can keep your equipment but I wouldn't. If D comes knockin and finds you in posession of cards and one programmer you will be paying him some money no question about it but you will not be hit to hard. If he gets your HDD you are going to be screwed. The emails you sent don't mean anything if he doesn't get your HDD he really only has one half of the evidence and that would leave prosecuting you for them a bit hard. Have fun good luck.

Wizzy

February 13th, 2003, 12:59 AM

Well I don't post much here..but being in a situation like this myself..I would have to agree with mouse01..If you really feel your are on that list of suspects then get rid of your present equipment (not hide..destroy) and stay away from anything related..

Unfortunately this is easier said then done..knowing I have dss info..code..and what have you on at least three of my four cpu's as well as my laptops and cpu's at work..many of us have made it a true hobby..aka LIFESTYLE and will find it hard to remove ourselves totally from the scene..and there are many more who will have to find a way to remove there footprints from the scene..many of us have had multiple nicks and aliases..now it seems to be a good thing..

good luck John_Corbin..and if you are succesfull at removing yourself from the scene (past..present..and future)..I wish you the best and all others who in time will slowly migrate from this trly great hobby)

just remember..It was never about free tv..

Wizzard

mouse01

February 13th, 2003, 06:18 AM

just remember..It was never about free tv..

This is very true. A true hobbiest is not in it for "freeTV" but are in it for the joy of learning. I don't even watch my TV. my wife has her TV and I have my hobby. She is happy and I am happy.

SHWAGNES

February 13th, 2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by John_Corbin
Looking for some advice about safely getting out of this hobby. Specifically, I knew some of the guys listed on the latest FBI reports being posted around the dss world. I wrote code with some of them, however, never released anything as "freeware" or sold anything. But I'm sure, worst case scenerio, there were emails of mine were sitting on the PCs of those raided that certainly mentioned HU circumvention techniques. Obviously, i'm posting under an anonymous name and IP(s).

I have no desire to participate in this any longer, but have worries about what I should do (besides of course get rid of all equipment..etc). My gut tells me that it would be best just to move on and forget about it, but I'm also thinking that *maybe* contacting DTV and informing them that I have quit could prevent me from being on their next raid list. Waiving the white flag in front of the enemy obviously could get me shot.

My case (hacker calling it quits) was certainly the goal of "dave" in the recent charges brought against fellow hackers. I'd like to think that mine (and others) openly stepping down would be good enough.

Any advice? Specifically, I'm sure there are some lawyers and other individuals more familiar with dave's law tactics who have some good advice.

Great thanks in advance,
"John"

PS. If this is the incorrect forum for this, feel free to move it.

There is nothing you can do to get out. This will be a very big ordeal for anyone involved i.e. coders, hardware developers, end users etc. Just because you haven't had the so call visit yet don't for a second think that it may not happen. Even if you destroyed your hard drive, hardware etc. they will try you with conspiracy which is very common for Federal cases in the USA.

mrself_destruct

February 13th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Get rid of all and any evidence. destroy hard drives, don't try formatting them. All you can do is make sure they find absolutely nothing if they decide to raid you. If they come up with no proof on you except some e-mails then you should be okay.

I would not call Dave and admit anything or say your quitting.

Originally posted by John_Corbin
Looking for some advice about safely getting out of this hobby. Specifically, I knew some of the guys listed on the latest FBI reports being posted around the dss world. I wrote code with some of them, however, never released anything as "freeware" or sold anything. But I'm sure, worst case scenerio, there were emails of mine were sitting on the PCs of those raided that certainly mentioned HU circumvention techniques. Obviously, i'm posting under an anonymous name and IP(s).

I have no desire to participate in this any longer, but have worries about what I should do (besides of course get rid of all equipment..etc). My gut tells me that it would be best just to move on and forget about it, but I'm also thinking that *maybe* contacting DTV and informing them that I have quit could prevent me from being on their next raid list. Waiving the white flag in front of the enemy obviously could get me shot.

My case (hacker calling it quits) was certainly the goal of "dave" in the recent charges brought against fellow hackers. I'd like to think that mine (and others) openly stepping down would be good enough.

Any advice? Specifically, I'm sure there are some lawyers and other individuals more familiar with dave's law tactics who have some good advice.

Great thanks in advance,
"John"

PS. If this is the incorrect forum for this, feel free to move it.

crzywhtboy

February 13th, 2003, 08:34 AM

JT-tek just got charged after years of absense....sometimes you just can never get out.

This sh#t is worse than crack, LOL

crzy

ALittleBirdie

February 13th, 2003, 08:57 AM

Hire an attorney and have them contact DTV's lawyers. They should be able to, while keeping your name out of things, investigate the possibility of an amnesty agreement in exchange for an admission of guilt.

While the Feds can still come after you, they will usually back off at DirecTv's request.

JD490

February 13th, 2003, 11:09 PM

I wouldn't contact them at all. You are doing nothing, but helping them with the evidence they might already have. They might have some of your emails, but not know who you really are. If you start calling them even through an attorney it won't matter they will offer some really high settlement offer. They want end users to pay 3500. How much do you think they will want for someone that wrote code. Most that are getting busted are people that sold stuff, and current code writers. Get rid of everything. Take the Hard drives and drill holes in them throw them and your devices in a dumpster after they go to a land fill dump nothing will be recoverd. Save up money for attorney fees in case you do end up getting busted. FBI will use an informent to either tape you talking about hacking, or buy things from you. Do not speak to anyone about it. Good luck

mouse01

February 13th, 2003, 11:22 PM

Email means nothing. If you are smart you used web mail. I wouldn’t even close my web mail. Hey it is a web based email account. How the hell should you know who hacked in and used your mail as a front. If you get rid of your HDD and get some new ones how can they prove you sent those emails. If they get your IP you can still deny it is you. Damn you mean to tell me not only did someone hack my web mail but they used my IP....WOW that is sneaky sneaky of them.

Phase

February 14th, 2003, 12:06 AM

With regards to the harddrive. PGP has a utility with its software that will securely wipe free harddrive space and slack. Norton SystemWorks has a secure format utility that will thoroughly wipe a harddrive.

Typically after 5 or more passes with either of these utilities it would be damn hard to recover any old data that was previously on that drive.

To The Real King!!

February 14th, 2003, 07:09 AM

Hi John_Corbin

Its pretty damn easy.

(1) Stop pirating

(2) Give everything away or destroy it.

(3) Sub to cable or whatever.

(4) forget about it.

(5) Hope they do too.

I stopped testing years ago and I dont even miss it. I have nothing at all anymore and my daughter has Bev for her cartoons etc and I listen to CNN occasionally which I pay for too.

I dont miss it at all and I still keep up to date on the forums as to the legal-issues. But just DO IT!!http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

I thought it would be hard but it was as easy as pie once I made my mind up.
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif
Thanks & Good Luck ,

<a href="mailto:ttrk@legal-rights.org">To The REAL King!!</a>

Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!
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<a href="http://www.legal-rights.org/dtv/classaction.html" target=blank> <img src="http://www.legal-rights.org/images/classaction.gif"></a>

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Muggles

February 14th, 2003, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by Phase
With regards to the harddrive. PGP has a utility with its software that will securely wipe free harddrive space and slack. Norton SystemWorks has a secure format utility that will thoroughly wipe a harddrive.

Typically after 5 or more passes with either of these utilities it would be damn hard to recover any old data that was previously on that drive.

:R Don't bet on it............ The F.B.I., has a high-tech lab in the mountains of West by god Virginia, and they have a computer system that can extract a hard-drive that had been wiped 10+ times. The info stored on a hard drive is NEVER really totally wiped off.

BrainDamage

February 14th, 2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Muggles
:R Don't bet on it............ The F.B.I., has a high-tech lab in the mountains of West by god Virginia, and they have a computer system that can extract a hard-drive that had been wiped 10+ times. The info stored on a hard drive is NEVER really totally wiped off.

True. If you want to rid a hard disk of data permanently, I suggest burning the platters in a kiln. Or, remove the platters from the drive and make sure they are never found. Dump them in separate places. It is difficult, if not impossible to recover data without all of the platters.

But, the question is, how much time will anyone spend on a hard disk to recover data for something like this?

Inspect

February 14th, 2003, 09:04 AM

Make any difference at this point...
Obviously if you continue Your risk is Greater if they dont already have your name...I would Try to get rid of all contacts and equipment That may be used against me...But if you were at any point implicated Quitting now ain't going to Help ya...It is already too late...
Good luck I think I would get rid of everything...stop all activity...
contact lawyers and see like the littlebirdy Stated...and then I would cross my fingers and toes...Good luck

crzywhtboy

February 14th, 2003, 07:51 PM

Ok, I found this software (it's free for 30 days) that uses the gutman process to delete slack space and internet traces from your hard drive

It will overwrite deleted data 32 times making it impossible to recover www.east-tec.com

crzy

JD490

February 14th, 2003, 09:03 PM

I shot a hole through my hard drives and took them to the dump on my next back yard cleanup day. Here in AZ a 14 year old kid shot his friend and killed him put him in the blue trash bin wheeled him out to the curb and the trash truck picked him up took him to the land fill dump. The police and the shariff's office dug through that dump looking for his body for a couple of weeks. Never found him. Best way to get rid of devices and hard drives.

BuzzSawOne

February 15th, 2003, 05:15 AM

As far as destroying your hard drives as some suggest, have any of you heard of Evidence Eliminator? How do I know it works? One way..... FBI has tried now for two years to get the DOJ to make it illegal (aiding and abetting criminal activity) and have failed in their attmpts so far. After 9/11, it may just go their way now, but it rewrites the areas of the hard drive you want to erase and gives them nothing but gibberish.....
No evidence on the HD and no equipment.... What can they prove. I do not think they would waste the money or resources on a non-provable case.
Just my $0.00001 cent worth, cause the FBI and DTV aren't worth any more than that...:gg

Buzz

crzywhtboy

February 15th, 2003, 08:28 AM

Evidence eliminator sucks! Will only protect you from your wife (if she doesn't have any technical experience at all)

Do a google search on evidence eliminator...there is a whole site devoted to exposing these scammers

crzy

acidboy

February 15th, 2003, 11:01 AM

BCWipe is a free piece of software that will write whatever data you want to the free space of your hard drive as much as you want. After about 100 passes no one will be getting to much off your machine...

That being said, the NSA believes the only way to get rid of sensitive data is to destroy the hard drive.

If I were really paranaoid I would BC-Wipe the entire drive (not just the freespace) 30-40 times and then I would take the BFM (big ----ing magnet) to the drive as a precaution... Then I would sell/give-a-way/trash the drive. This will keep anyone that gets your drive from being able to retrive data off it, unless it somehow ends up in the hand of a TLA. I don't think you sound like a big enough fish to spend the money it would take to recover such data even if the the TLA gets involved, but that's purely speculative.

Encrypting your whole hard drive and swap partition on the new drive might be something to consider as well. BestCrypt will encrypt data in such away that it would be impossible for anyone (except maybe the NSA) to get to it, just use like a 20 charachter mixed case/alphanumeric passphrase. If the NSA shows they know how to decrypt such data in a non-terrorist type situation I would be VERY surprised. I believe their are still some pedophiles out there that haven't gone to court (in Europe though) due to lack of evidence (they can't unencrypt their hard drives) by using similar products.

Evidence Eliminator is an ok program that makes massively exagerated claims and charges too much. There is a 17K executable freeware app that does everything EE actually does, and uses Gutmann methods to wipe.

acidboy

February 15th, 2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by BuzzSawOne
As far as destroying your hard drives as some suggest, have any of you heard of Evidence Eliminator? How do I know it works? One way..... FBI has tried now for two years to get the DOJ to make it illegal (aiding and abetting criminal activity) and have failed in their attmpts so far.

Can you prove this claim? I would think they would be happy a wildly popular program that uses such weak methods of protection was so popular. It's much more likely that the gov't is shutting them down for false advertising. Check out www.evidence-eliminator-sucks.com to see what some real computer scientists recommend using and have to say about EE.

McRiddles

February 15th, 2003, 11:09 AM

Hard drives are cheap...lawyers ain't.

BuzzSawOne

February 15th, 2003, 06:16 PM

Not that I was trying to say that EE is a surefire way of defeating ANY info on the HD.... I never listened to any of the EE bs claims or spam.... Have a friend that believes in its ability to erase better than defrag or format. They only make the HD re-writable over the old dats. EE does have the ability to make the area of the HD rewritable but also writes junk over the top of what is being erased.
If they really want to get you (You are a terrorist or kiddy-porn ass) they still have the ability, but for a minimally dangerous person (such as one on this forum) they will probably not go through the trouble or expense, EE makes it just difficult enough for it to be a waste of their time.
Not to defend the folks at Robin Hood, but all vendors in the game use the same practices, just to a different degree (buy MY loader, it does a better job of cracking the HU card, etc.).
BTW, my friend is a person that can restore your HD and retrieve your valuable info should you accidently erase (format) your HD... He says it is not worth it for anyone to pay him what it would cost to retrieve the info (he says he could at best only PARTIALLY retrieve the info) if they had wiped it with EE or similar programs.....

Buzz

acidboy

February 17th, 2003, 03:33 PM

Right, but when truly free software is availabe that wipes your freespace/slackspace using Guttmann methods, why would you recommend EE?

r20jfell

February 17th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Never sell your harddrive. Reasons can be found here (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/01/15/national1617EST0765.DTL) and here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2676461.stm). Fire works well to destroy hardware, but you can also try using the microwave. Leave no traces of the device anywhere. Some even recommended (way back when) to take your open harddrive for a swim in a nice chlorinated pool before burning.

There are hundreds of places that can recover data that's been overwritten -- check out this small list (http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=data+recovery) for yourself.

Subscribe to cable (or anything else) and pay your monthly bill. Read books instead of watching television, and write useful (non-DMCA violating ;)) programs for your platform of choice instead of reading books. There's always something you can do to take your mind off of hacking D@ve during the day.. the hardest part is just when you're trying to fall asleep and a new 3M idea pops into your head.

Good luck!

Justin

February 17th, 2003, 08:02 PM

McRiddlesLand Lubber.."Hard drives are cheap...lawyers ain't." :)

A lot of this discussion has to do with what you did in the past.
If you opened your mouth too much, it don't matter what you have on your harddrive, if you gave away too much in public they have all the evidence they need/want.

navisis

February 18th, 2003, 01:34 AM

there must be a statute of limitations on the DMCA.. wait it out hehe

Ballhawg

February 18th, 2003, 09:25 AM

Just to try and clear this thread up and who it should pertain to I have a few questions.
Who exactly would the FBI be going after? Some guy that bought a programmer and is getting 3m's from a website so he can watch free tv for a couple of days. Or are they going to be looking for the code writers who are figuring this stuff out and posting the 3m's on these websites?
Just wondering before some poor guys go and erase and destroy their hard drives for no reason. Please clear this up for us and if it does pertain to the first case scenario then maybe some smaller guys should be worrying.

mouse01

February 18th, 2003, 11:22 AM

This applies to everyone. If your best friends grandma from your third cousins side of the family who slightly resembles Michael Jackson gets busted for being an idiot, and turns you in. You can bet they will confiscate your pc when they come for a visit.

Cherry Coke

February 21st, 2003, 11:31 AM

Here is what I would do...

Delete it with sysinternal (free) sdelete. (Wipe it 26 times)
Wipe freespace like 26 times with PGP.
Get linux boot disk and wipe it some more with dd command.
Reinstall windows.
Set up a PGP encrypted drive.
Fill it with porn.
Save the key in a unencrypted text file on the main drive.
Remove drive and apply 110ac to power connector.
Smash drive on driveway manytimes and/or shoot with gun.
Place drive on shelf in zip lock bag.

If they ever do get anything off the drive, which they won't, but if they do, they will simply think you are a stupid (pgp key in plain text on main drive) porn freak.

I'd rather be a stupid porn freak than in jail.

dssslick

February 21st, 2003, 12:25 PM

If you can't afford to dump your hard-drives but need one of the best utilities, get killdisk from the website named the same. The free version works great against your average undelete programs. The full version is Standard DoD 5220.22-M. Run this for about 10 passes, 24+ hours and you'll be set. However, FBI does have a new method using Magnetic Resonance. I'm not quiet familiar with it but I do know that it will recover data regardless of how many times the drive was overwritten. It does cost them thousands of dollars to run the test though.

Slam_mm

February 21st, 2003, 01:26 PM

Just drop your HD in the ocean or in the middle of a deep lake.

Cherry Coke

February 21st, 2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by dssslick
If you can't afford to dump your hard-drives but need one of the best utilities, get killdisk from the website named the same. The free version works great against your average undelete programs. The full version is Standard DoD 5220.22-M. Run this for about 10 passes, 24+ hours and you'll be set. However, FBI does have a new method using Magnetic Resonance. I'm not quiet familiar with it but I do know that it will recover data regardless of how many times the drive was overwritten. It does cost them thousands of dollars to run the test though.

Not true... there is no program or device that will recover data *no matter how many times* you overwrite it. I belive the DoD thing you speak of says 26 times, I would have to look it up. In any case, the devices used to recover old data costs more than $1000's a shot. They have to want you bad and I doubt it will handle 50+ as I suggested.

Look at it this way... If there was some method of recovery that would allow you to recover 50 writes for $10,000... then I would have a harddrive that costs $10,299 and it would store 12,500,000MB or 12.5 Terabytes. I would gladly pay it.

Or look at it another way. If each atom in a disk drive could store 1 bit... (currently it can't, but if it could) and if I write to the disk more times than there are atoms/capacity, then there is no way something from the first write can still exist.

Now I realize you may have been exagerating a bit, but lets keep it under control.

Fyi, I wipe my systems slack and freespace 3 times a day (set to run at night) and I use transparent encryption for my casual stuff and PGP Disk for everything else... I also use a bios and HD password which both can be broken, but I used them anyway. You can never be too careful.