View Full Version : Question on discovery and subpoenas...
KneeJrk
June 11th, 2003, 09:23 PM
I received a summons and am in the process of answering it through an attorney. Do you usually need to proceed all the way to discovery to find out what evidence they have on you? Also, at what point in the process is it usual for UPS, FedEx, and Paypal records to be subpoena'd. Paypal kept excellent records, including both party's IP addresses....:confused: :(
yellaboyla
June 12th, 2003, 07:54 AM
Yes you have to go all the way to get discovery. If your lawyer files motions to dismiss, and they are granted, u don't need discovery.
DTV can not normally get records because this is a civil case, not crimminal.
Paypal will sell u down the river quick, but simply buying some devices does not make you guilty.
banks and large companies want court orders for records.
mrself_destruct
June 12th, 2003, 08:58 AM
Actually, if your lawyer requests to see the evidence from DTV's lawyers they will usually give it to you well before discovery, since they want you to settle.
It really does Dave no good to let a case get to discovery since he really doesn't want cases to go very far. Remember, it's all about settlements and default judgements. They either want you to settle or figure out if they need to drop it relatively early on.
Originally posted by KneeJrk
I received a summons and am in the process of answering it through an attorney. Do you usually need to proceed all the way to discovery to find out what evidence they have on you? Also, at what point in the process is it usual for UPS, FedEx, and Paypal records to be subpoena'd. Paypal kept excellent records, including both party's IP addresses....:confused: :(
SHWAGNES
June 12th, 2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by mrself_destruct
It really does Dave no good to let a case get to discovery since he really doesn't want cases to go very far. Remember, it's all about settlements and default judgements. They either want you to settle or figure out if they need to drop it relatively early on.
Who says Dave doesn't and or won't take a case past discovery? I've yet to see anyone try yet.
Ps. If I'm wrong please post the case number and I'll stand corrected
Lager
June 12th, 2003, 10:02 AM
There is the problem. Anything set to get in front of a judge is dismissed by dave. There have been cases that were very close to being heard and poof, it is gone.
Lager
mrself_destruct
June 12th, 2003, 10:06 AM
There are too many case numbers to cite. One of three things usually happens:
1. The defendants don't respond - default judgment
2. The defendants respond and settle.
3. The defendants respond and show willingness to fight - Dave ends up dropping most of these cases.
Unfortunately option 3 doesn't happen very often. But when it does Dave has shown he doesn't want to go very far.....YET. Of course each case must de decided on it's own merits and based on the evidence. I'm sure sooner or later there will be a case Dave's lawyers feel comfortable enough pursuing to trial in which they have numerous purchases and some real proof - and which the defendant wants to fight.
However most of these cases are based on very flimsy evidence and have no initial investigation done to verify the validity of the charges - especially those taken from the Fulfillment/Viper/Vector raids. Dave has been very successful with the default judgments and settlements. His lawyers file one case with 10-15 defendants and collect settlements/default judgements. Those that show a willingness to fight, he drops. Little risk, all reward.
But as I WAS saying, if your attorney requests to see the evidence he has BEFORE discovery for the purposes of "settlement discussion" - they will gladly show their evidence.
Originally posted by SHWAGNES
Who says Dave doesn't and or won't take a case past discovery? I've yet to see anyone try yet.
Ps. If I'm wrong please post the case number and I'll stand corrected
sab5612
June 16th, 2003, 04:35 PM
I received my summons Friday I have an appointment with my lawyer this Friday the question I have is if I decided not to settle could they come at me again from records from a different dealer? I purchased equipment from 3 different dealers right now they are only coming at me from vector I have been thinking about settling just to make it all go away.
slimboy
June 16th, 2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by sab5612
I received my summons Friday I have an appointment with my lawyer this Friday the question I have is if I decided not to settle could they come at me again from records from a different dealer? I purchased equipment from 3 different dealers right now they are only coming at me from vector I have been thinking about settling just to make it all go away.
If they get a default judgement they can come after you again for a previous purchase. Getting a judgment against you is not like getting a settlement agreement with a global release provision.
Cmch
June 16th, 2003, 06:40 PM
Has anyone actually figured out what DTV would be awarded in the event the Judge heard everyone's story and decided to rule against an end user?
DTV quotes all kind of BS $ ammounts such as $100k, but that only appears to be against dealers. My take on it, is that they could reasonably be awarded $10k max. How many Judge's ever award the max penalty, especially from a 1st time defendant, and with only circumstantial evidence of wrong doing?
I think it would be reasonably for a Judge to award like $5k max in the worst case scenario.
I know these attorneys are charging us more just to defend against this crap. I'm going to go at it Pro Se (with some attorney review), and see where it goes. There could be serious repercussions in my employment if I admitted any sort of guilt or even settled.
Lager
June 16th, 2003, 06:42 PM
It's up to the judge. Some have awarded the default amount of $10,000 plus legal fees. Other judges have awarded $2,000 plus legal fees.
Lager
Cmch
June 16th, 2003, 06:55 PM
Was that for default judgement, or actually losing their case / or pleading guilty?
Either way, that sounds reasonable. I spoke to someone also being sued in the same state and he said he retained a prominent lawyer working these cases for $5k retainer, + $1k travel expenses (I believe each time he comes out here).
I know legal representation is invaluable in some situations, but this isn't a matter where any of us are going to jail, etc. Those of us who own homes aren't going to lose them over this crap. I can't see a judge awarding as much as a lawyer would cost you to defend this suit.
Blixx
June 16th, 2003, 07:31 PM
Discovery is a really interesting process. You are within your rights to ask for things like plans and technical specifications of P3 and P4 cards if you wanted to take it that far. If I were representing a technically minded client I would ask for documents that DTV wouldn't want to part with. You would need a good technical explaination of why you needed the documents to prove your case though. Anyone got one?
Lager
June 16th, 2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Cmch
Was that for default judgement, or actually losing their case / or pleading guilty?
Either way, that sounds reasonable. I spoke to someone also being sued in the same state and he said he retained a prominent lawyer working these cases for $5k retainer, + $1k travel expenses (I believe each time he comes out here).
I know legal representation is invaluable in some situations, but this isn't a matter where any of us are going to jail, etc. Those of us who own homes aren't going to lose them over this crap. I can't see a judge awarding as much as a lawyer would cost you to defend this suit.
Both of them (the dollar figures) were for default, just different judges. If I were being sued I would hope I was in the same district that judge who assigned the $2000 award was in. If you read his reasoning you will see that he doesn't exactally agree with daves way of thinking when it comes to damages or lawyer fees.
Lager
gunsmoke2
June 16th, 2003, 10:50 PM
It's up to the judge. Some have awarded the default amount of $10,000 plus legal fees. Other judges have awarded $2,000 plus legal fees.
You'll likey to do better in front of a judge who has a pirate card ;)
GS2
To The Real King!!
September 1st, 2003, 12:21 PM
Hi Folks,
Here is a list of the types of questions and answers that a person anticipating a " pro se" defence would request of DTV by way of discovery, long beore reaching any court.
This information and much other information that can be very useful is posted on my legal-rights site at:
http://www.legal-rights.org/dtv/DTVDone/DTVINFOETC.html
and I am sure that people will find much of the info posted there, very useful to your defence.
When you get down to the short curlies and the real details like this on discovery requests, Interrogatory's, requests for admissions and requests for production of evidence, it becomes clear just how little of these critically important questions DTV cannot answer. Right from the "git-go" it becomes quite apparent that they DO NOT have the goods on you and were relying on the "mere possession" argument for their entire prosecution. This is what was scaring end users into making settlements. But now that many courts have ruled AGAINST the "mere possession " argument, DTV are not in very good shape when it comes down to the detailed facts. Look at the questions here and remember that you will also want to make requests of other important things that pertain to YOUR actual case. That could even make them look worse.
Ïolks its time to STOP being bamboozled into making a settlement and find that you can defend against this for MUCH less than a settlement would cost you. Seriously its time to consider a different course of action than the settlements.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif
DISCOVERY REQUESTS
INTERROGATORY NO. 1:
State the names of each person answer or assisting in answering each of the following discovery requests, their position with you, and the discovery requests they assisted in answering.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 2:
State the “other information” you relied upon, as referenced in Paragraph 7 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint, that you contend forms evidentiary support for your allegations that [NAME] accessed Direct TV’s programming without permission and/or payment to Direct TV.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 3:
State the factual basis for your contention that [NAME] used the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint to access Direct TV’s programming without permission and/or payment to Direct TV.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 4:
State the factual basis for your contention in Paragraph 28 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint that [NAME] “may have been engaged in an enterprise to distribute and/or resell the devices” identified in Paragraph 24 of the Compliant.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 5:
If you contend that [NAME] acted in concert with any other person to carry one or more of the actions alleged in Plaintiff’s Original Complaint: (1) identify such person(s); and, (2) state the factual basis for such contention(s).
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 6:
Identify the satellite reception equipment that you contend [NAME] used to intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 7:
If you have identified any satellite reception equipment in response to the preceding interrogatory, state the factual basis for your contention that such equipment was used by [NAME] used improperly or illegally to intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 8:
Identify all software, including but not limited to “SU2 Code,” that you contend [NAME] used improperly or illegally to intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 9:
Identify all computer or electronic data processing equipment, other than the items identified in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint, that you contend [NAME] used improperly or illegally to intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 10:
Identify all other electronic equipment, other than that identified in response to the preceding three (3) interrogatories that you contend [NAME] used to intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR ADMISSION NO. 1:
Admit that [NAME] would be unable to use the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint to decrypt or otherwise intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals without satellite reception equipment.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR ADMISSION NO. 2:
Admit that [NAME] would be unable to use the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint to decrypt or otherwise intercept or otherwise view or display your satellite signals without additional software to program such items and to program a Direct TV access card.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR ADMISSION NO. 3:
Admit that [NAME] would be unable to use the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint to decrypt or otherwise intercept Direct TV’s satellite programming without additional computer or electronic data processing equipment.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 11:
State the factual basis for your allegation in Paragraph 31 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint that [NAME] “use[d] illegal satellite decoding devices, or by manipulation of the satellite system authorized to carry the Satellite Programming where Defendant [is] located.”
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 12:
Identify each Direct TV program that you contend [NAME] viewed or displayed without payment to Direct TV.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 13:
State the factual basis for your contention that [NAME] viewed or displayed the programs identified in response to the preceding interrogatory.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 14:
State the factual basis for your contention that the devices described in Paragraph 2 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint were “primarily designed to gain unauthorized access to [Direct TV’s] satellite communication signals.”
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR ADMISSION NO. 4:
Admit that the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint are ISO-7816 compliant programmers and/or programmable programmers.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 15:
If your response to the preceding interrogatory is other than an unqualified admission, state the factual basis for your contention that the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint are not ISO-7816 compliant programmers and/or programmable programmers.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR ADMISSION NO. 5:
Admit that the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint can be used to program ISO-7816 “smart card” devices other than Direct TV access cards.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 16:
If your response to the preceding interrogatory is other than an unqualified admission, state the factual basis for your contention that the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint cannot by used to program ISO-7816 “smart card” devices other than Direct TV access cards.
RESPONSE:
INTERROGATORY NO. 17:
Identify, by cause number, court and first named defendant, all civil actions in which you have alleged a civil cause of action exists in your favor under 18 U.S.C. § 2512.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 1:
For the civil actions listed in response to the preceding interrogatory, produce copies of all orders and
memoranda of each court denying the existence of a civil cause of action under 18 U.S.C. § 2512, without regard to whether such orders were final, interlocutory or on appeal.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 2:
Produce all “shipping records, email communications, credit card receipts and other records” referred to in Paragraph 7 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint that you contend demonstrate or tend to demonstrate that [NAME] purchased the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 3:
Produce the technical specifications for the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 4:
Produce all photographs or other images of the items described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 5:
Produce the “SU2 Code” described in Paragraph 24 of Plaintiff’s Original Complaint.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 6:
Produce all software that you contend [NAME] used to program Direct TV access cards or other access devices.
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 7:
Produce all correspondence between yourself and [NAME]
RESPONSE:
REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO. 8:
Produce all correspondence between yourself and any other defendant in this civil action.
RESPONSE:
[END OF DOCUMENT]
In the actual document that you send them BE SURE to leave about 20 times the space you used in the question for their answer. Later when this document looks empty because they have few if any answers, it will look even better for you. Go get em guys.
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Thanks & Good Luck ,
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