Sad Times

[CISCOKID]

You know for the last few months I have been reading and watching all of this back and forth bickering over stolen,leaked,and rom dumped scripts and it is just astonishing what this hobby has turned into.I remember the F-card days where this group was feuding with this group,but no one leaked private scripts like this ever.There was some kind of ethics,some kind of common courtesy.Now IP's are being put out in the open,name calling and now threats with firearms.Is this the best all of you can come up with?Is this the cream of the crop of testers and script writers?Because if this is, the whole testing community is in for a rude awakening.First of all it is not wrong to dump,steal,or leak private files only if it is for your private use,meaning to program your family,friends,and co-workers cards,but it is wrong to distribute them all over the entire net for public use, to get back, or show you are some kinda Robin Hood of the testing community,because you are only hurting your self in the end.In the last 6 months,Dtv has been taught and shown every last type of cloaking method,fuse method,AI method,jumpless method,activation etc.Basiclly the P4 and D1(same card with upgraded security) fix is ----ed.By your actions every type of write method has been exposed so when it took Dtv several months to defeat a fix,it will be days or better yet hours.You know even drug dealers,prostitutes,snitches,murderers,robbers have some type of code of ethics,don't tread on other peoples territories.I see why the great script writers have gone into retirement,they'll not afraid of Dtv they are tired of the bull---- that this hobby (yes hobby) has turned into and the untrustworthiness of others that don't have the common sense of a fire hydrant.I was always taught that a dog has the sense not to ---- where he sleeps,and its been alot of ---- lately that this hobby will be short lived pretty soon!The main excuse I keep hearing is "this dealer is a rip off so I am putting his/her work out for the masses" which is a bunch of lies,lets call a spade a spade and stop bull----ting your selves,you do it because you get a sense of power or attention.If you wanted to clean up this hobby,create a script that is better than the one that you think is crap.If this attitude was adapted say in sports,there wouldn't be sports.I will use the NBA for example,we all know that the Los Angeles Lakers on paper and for the last 3-4 years was the team to beat by their dominance,a team full of all-stars and role players that can shine every night of the week,so if I am a owner of a losing franchise,lets just use the Los Angeles Clippers(nothing meant by this,just example) should I go out and kidnapp the coach or maybe Shaq and Kobe for the season because I feel hey they are cheating,or bullying me and I don't stand a chance,or I don't like how they dominate every year?No,what would that get.Or do I as a coach say "hey its no sense in dressing for the game because they are going to kick our ass,or do I do like the San Antonio Spurs and put the best team and the best effort I have up front and take my chances,life is about chances,To display someone elses work really is like being a critic,they can't do it so they criticize nothing they know about.Or in racing,do I break in Dale Jarrets garage and steal his race car,paint it and pretend that it is mine just to come in last place?If a few folks took the same energy into name calling and stealing files and put that energy into something positive like defeating some cmd's with using their own ideas,then this hobby would be something great.And just like when kids get in trouble over and over again,then the shift of blame shifts to the parents,this wouldn't go on if moderators let this go on.This could stop in a heart beat if the moderators chose it to stop and stop looking for a little controversy and more members because of leaked files,one thing people forget,when there is smoke you draw attention,don't think that Secret Service,FBI and ATF(with displays of weapons) aren't monitoring these sites too,its bad enough that you are stealing Dtvs' signal (testing) or whatever you want to call it.The world in all has lost the most important rule in life "Treat others how you want them to treat you"!Peace

[mouse01]

i was unfortunately not around during those good old days that i keep hearing about but i too see a hobby in need of some rebuilding. the problem is that it is no longer a hobby for the majority. the majority has changed from a group of people who do this for fun to a group of people who do this to make a living. the new majority sees anything and everything that is not in their favor as a direct threat and must crush it at any cost. they must stop anyone from possably changing their bottum line. this is the problem with this hobby. this is the problem with everything in the world today. money is why this hobby has gone to crap. money is the reason why aol and all of those other guys got busted. money is the reason why directv is suing everyone. money is the reason why the courts are looking the other way and allowing all of these lawsuits based on the exact same lack of evidence. money is the problem......

[morgana]

Unfortunately the playing field has been set, and the players are already trained. Their methods are engrained, and yes it is going to be the down fall of all in the end. Years ago, the people in the business were not so dumb as the the current crop of -------s, that are around today. For most, people will hang around and ride this current playing field right into it last dying breath, which will not be too far off.

The next chapter in this saga, will not be published to the public at all, and it will never see the internet period. It will be there and it will be so tightly guarded, that it will never make it into the hands of the masses. So, all I can say is, enjoy it while you can, but remember it is coming to an end. I no longer do any of this and to me it really makes little difference how it plays out. I am done and only keep an ear to the ground just for the sake of keeping up. I can tell you that anyone stupid enough to put any faith in 99% of the people out there, are backing a lame horse. The P4 is not going to be anything more then a disappointment, as if it ever surfaces if would be swapped immediately, to the new D1. So what is a hack worth that would never last more then a few months?

To all the naysayers, who pop their yaps off saying the D1 is just the p4 with a minor change, all I can say is go look at the court case where NDS sues DTV over this card, and you will see that the code similarities are very small, but they did exist, hence the court case. Hell, if it was the way the -------s who say it only has minor changes say, then the case would have been a slam dunk for NDS, and we know that the deals they made out of court really reduces NDS but did give them a life line only, to stop their nuisiance suit. So, it should be that any thinking person can derive from that the new D1 card is a major revision with only minor similarities, not the other way around.

So, instead of people working on a P4 hack, they will be working towards a D1 hack, as that is where the future lies for now, and again it will never see the light of the net. The crime of stealling satellite tv, has now got penalties that are way greater then selling drugs. You do not see any of the top drug dealers selling on the internet do you? Why would you think then that satellite is going to be any different. Yes, computers will still be used, and things will still be worked on, and codes broken. It is just that none of this will ever be done on the net. Some groups will form and maybe even gather on private BBS's or the like, but nothing of consequence would really take place there. Hell, I will not be there, as I am not one of the elite. I know many who will be there, and these guys are not going to take the risks involved for free and they definitely will never release this to the public. Years ago, the industry was controlled by a few dozen people, and that is where it will return. A hard lesson was taught and learned the hard way. That is now being corrected.

[EUGENE1]

The only people really concerned with all this are not the end users but the dealers and script writers who made a fortune off end users.

The only ones threatening violence and backstabbing others are dealers. Its thier livelihood. End users could care less if thier free DTV finnishes tonight.

Ive enjoyed the ride and will not miss it for a minute. Hell I still and will always have my trusty reliable cable.

This so called hobby stoped being a hobby when people started charging for it. Its the money being made by the dealers that drew the attention of the authorities and nothing else!

I also strongly believe that if it were't for the easy hackability of these sat signals, people would never even bother drilling holes in thier homes to hang these dishes.

I believe that these Sat companies purposely made it easy to decrypt thier signals. As thier market share grew larger and larger they eventually had to answer to stock holders who naturally werent to happy hearing all about the potential lost revenue. Now they want the drug user (end user) to stop taking drugs(stealing signals) after being doped up for so long?

Wanna stop signal theft? Simple. Charge 100 dollars a month and include everything, including all ppv and special events. Most of the crap is repetitive anyway.

[Sithlord]

Cisco, have you ever heard of PARAGRAPHS??? It's difficult to read your posts.

And Morgana, there is NO D1 even out yet. Pontificate all you want, but the D1 is DirecTV's future card that has yet to be produced. There is only the P4 as the new one. The "newly designed" P4 is still the P4. Some call it the P4.5 or P5, but it's still the P4 (check its ATR--it's the same. No cards of different generations/classifications have ever had the same ATR.)

Even a lot of the longtime gurus out there know this.

[morgana]

Sithlord
You are wrong and the D1 is out and is presently being sold. If you took time to look at the time frame DTV had to do it in if they would have not made their deal with NDS, you would see thge contreact was up Aug 21 2003. That is when they would have had to be ready for the launch of their new card, and that is what is presenting being shown on 222. Those are the facts. They are not again working on another as of yet. That is whay we saw the build up of the new cards being sent to the dristributors earlier this summer. It was all in gearing up for the abrupt change that was only lessened with the deal between NDS and DTV a week or so before the actual contract was to expire.

[CISCOKID]

Sithlord,maybe you just have difficulties reading period.No one had a problem reading my post except for you.

[Blaster]

CISCO - I gotta go with SithLord on this one....

When I looked at that, daunting, block of black & white letters, I thought "whoa, do I really want to wade through all that?" (I did though, and it Was worth it ;) )

Next time, if you broke it up into succinct paragraphs it Would be a Whole lot easier on the eyes and many more people are likely to read it.

[Sithlord]

Originally posted by morgana
Sithlord
You are wrong and the D1 is out and is presently being sold. If you took time to look at the time frame DTV had to do it in if they would have not made their deal with NDS, you would see thge contreact was up Aug 21 2003. That is when they would have had to be ready for the launch of their new card, and that is what is presenting being shown on 222. Those are the facts. They are not again working on another as of yet. That is whay we saw the build up of the new cards being sent to the dristributors earlier this summer. It was all in gearing up for the abrupt change that was only lessened with the deal between NDS and DTV a week or so before the actual contract was to expire.

Au contraire, morgana. There is ONE and ONLY ONE new card out, the P4. DirecTV themselves even explained that the D1 is for "future use." If the D1 is out, as you incorrectly assert, then prove it by getting its ATR. As everyone here knows, there is one aspect of an access card that remains unique: The ATR.

Currently, only the HU and P4 cards exist. Both have a different ATR. The new striped cards, mistakenly referred to as "P5," or "P4.5," or even "D1" are all P4's, nothing more. Take a look at their ATR's. They're all the same as the traditional light blue P4's.

[morgana]

The same ATR mean nothing lots of card can have the same atr. That is just a card validation responce nothing more. Go read the court documents about the case between DTV and NDS, and then you will see the real answer not crap spread around by the idiots who think they know something. It will tell you about the minor similiarities between the two cards and you will also see that the contract was up Aug 21 2003, and that was why DTV have the new cards already in the systems, as they were going to need to use their own as of that date if NDS did not make a deal with them. If the the contract expired DTV could not have manufacture any units with the P4 as they would no longer have had the rights to do so. It should become obvious from that just as to why and how they were going to proceed. For now with the new agreement DTV can still make use of P4 and the new D1, and will probably do so for some time to come. If a P4 hack surfaces, then you will see the new D1 wwhich is the striped cards, will be swapped out to replace the P4.

Never should anyone think that the ATR tells you all about the card, as it is not really very informative. You can have several atr's exactly the same but with totally different programming on the cards. While it does give us some insight in historical bytes etc., it is nothing more then saying it is a DTV compliant card responce. It does not say anything more about the inner workings at all.

[Sithlord]

Originally posted by morgana
The same ATR mean nothing lots of card can have the same atr. That is just a card validation responce nothing more. Go read the court documents about the case between DTV and NDS, and then you will see the real answer not crap spread around by the idiots who think they know something.

I don't know what the hell you're smoking, but I'd suggest you get off it.

No two access cards of different generations have ever had the same ATR. None. Ever.

The ATR is a significant part of the cards' uniqueness, one that I won't explain here because you would not be able to understand it based on your ignorance of the current cards out there right now.

Some things in the data stream are EXACTLY the same for all cards..

ONE thing is UNIQUE for each card type--the ATR. There is a very important reason for this, but this obviously escapes you.

1) the VA packet.. is unique for each card type,
................there are 2 types in the datastream right now, one for the HU, one for the P4. Therefore, if this striped card was the P5 or D1, its VA packets would be different. They are not.

2) The video stream is the same for all card types,
.............. there is only 1 video dataset

3) The audio stream is the same for all card types
.............. there is only 1 audio dataset

4) The guide bytes are the same for all card types

5) The low speed data is the same for all card types

The D1 does not yet exist. It is scheduled to be the next generation of cards, designed entirely by DTV's in-house folks. DirecTV even explained this publicly, but you choose to ignore it. The current striped cards ARE P4's. Period.

Again, there are two and only two types of cards in existence right now: The HU and the P4.

[morgana]

Get a grip on yourself and go study about smart cards. You will find that the atr is only the answer to reset and nothing more. This just verifies that the card is valid and has the proper checksums. We change the prograsmming on the card all the time. Do you see the atr changing? The verification for some of the ATR is in rom, but that does not mean it all is. Otherwise we could never unloop a card that came up with a bad atr, now would it. We see that the 4th byte can be corrupted quitte easily if the timing is too wide. So no it is quite easily done to have the same atr and then run a totally different program. It is done all the with network security cards. The processors can be the same on 100's of different cards and with the sue of asics the cards can be completely different. The IRDs when made and especially the older non-upgradeable ones, must still go about calling for the atr in the same old way. The cards are nothing more then an authorization program, that gives keys to the IRD to process the signal incoming.

Yes, while most of the cards we have seen come out so far have had differing processors, and baud rates, it does not mean that they must always be that way. The very fact that we have not openly broken the asics on the cards, means all they need do is address the present methods of glitching into the cards, and then setup watchdog timers and anti glitch routines, and yes they can still run quite safely with the present processor. It was quite amazing in the F and h cards that they did not activate the watchdog timer that was built into the processors, and that would have really trown a monkey wrench in our game plan.

So, let me put this to you, if DTV and NDS did not make the deal they did on Aug 15 2003, which was one week before the contract expired, what do you think DTV was going to do? Shut down all their sales and manufacturing operations, while they then developed the new D1? You must know that is not so, and no multi-billion dollar corporation would ever play chicken with that much at stake. So they would have their rendition prepared and ready to go, and if you look at the time line that is exactly what the new card apeared and was held in distribution. The similarities in code between DTV's and NDS cards, were only a lever NDS used to try and keep DTV as a client. As without them NDS would pretty much be decimated. They clutched at straws to hang in there and only succeeded in getting a deal from DTV, with less then one week from contract expirey. The deal wile iit gives NDS a life line really deminishes alot of what they had, but it was either that or become an impotent force in the world of smart cards. All of this can be verified pretty much in the court filings of NDS versus DTV. The final deal is sealed and not open to our browsing.

Now, can DTV work on a smart card for the next swap? Yes, I would assume they are always trying to do this, all the time, as smart cards do not have long security lives. I can not say if they will find a new peocessor that will work better under their new plans, but processors lately really have not changed much other then in speeds, so for now I would not think that would be a problem. The only thing they need to address to stop us in our tracks is being able to get into the card with easy means and hardware. Once they have done that, we then must break the encryption itself in order to get into the cards, and we all know that so far that has never been done, and would take many years to do so. If the seal all entry except through they own encryption access, they will have a very secure card for quite some time to come.

Actually, this is getting really difficult to keep talking about without giving exact card details and that would get us all and the site into trouble. So I will again point out that the whole story anout the new D1 is pretty much in the court filings of NDS versus DTV. Do not get your hopes up of finding any hidden tidbits to allow secrets to be found there. They were not that stupid any more. But you will see facts brought out and percentages of code similarities, and that should tell you much right there. Not only was it designed, but was ready for release on the date of contract expirey. Oh and yes, it was a DTV in house card.

[XMyth]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sithlord....just because the 4 previous generations of cards by DTV
had different ATRs doesn't matter. 4 over that long of time
doesn't quite make a strong patter. Sure if there'd been 50 then
you'd have more to support your statement, but even then it'd be JUST
a pattern. Morgana has technical facts on her side. The cards ATR
is not like a "card type ID" or anything like that.


Also, spouting off IRRELEVANT (to this discussion) and COMMON facts
about the video stream and VA packets isn't really helping your
argument.....


You can't prove something based on a pattern....you can only suggest
it. That's like saying..."well...the last 5 people in my
neighborhood died in a car accident so that's DEFINATELY how the next
person will die...without a doubt!".

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[Sithlord]

I never said the D1 card wasn't in Dave's plans. It's common knowledge that it is. I am simply saying that people are mistaken if they believe the current striped card is not a P4. It is. There are presently only two versions of CAMs in use: The HU and the P4. The D1 is billed as the next one.

If you think I'm off base, then go check with those who are smarter than me in this arena. There's a very good discussion of this on AT's forum, where Mikey! et. al. explain this.

[ggreco]

beleive none of what you hear and only 1/2 of what you see... if you add the proper front and back and go to a DSS site called WATCH you can see a pic of the card or look at my avatar:cool: DoubleG sorry it was to big i cropped it

[Sithlord]

Originally posted by ggreco
beleive none of what you hear and only 1/2 of what you see... if you add the proper front and back and go to a DSS site called WATCH you can see a pic of the card or look at my avatar:cool: DoubleG sorry it was to big i cropped it

And your point is?

We all know what this redesigned P4 looks like. :)

[MrCrowley]

No New Video Authorization. No New Card. Period.
Wake up ciscokid and morgana the cards are not out in customers hands or there would be changes in the stream.PERIOD. Just like before. This is why there is so much fighting going on in the community. People that think they now it all and won't listen to LOGIC.

[zorin888]

Some things will never change will they? Pointless bickering..

..back to obscurity.

-=z

[morgana]

People can believe what they want to. I have gone as far as I can without posting actual card data, and that would be against the rules of the forum, as well as just plain dumb. All I am going to say is, believe what you like, and in a short while you will then see the true picture. The only time you will see new cmds in the stream for a new card is if the card is using another processor, and their is no need to do that, as it is not the processor itself that is the problem. The software on the processor just needs to be used with all its built in security routines setup and working. Once that is done, the end of glitching will arrive. If you can not glitch in you can not see the changes to the s/w and then again can not hack the code. The present processors have many times the power needed and quite a few security measures not used so far, but I believe that is all about to change.

If you want to think the new DTV card is the same as the P4 by NDS, that is fine. But why then was it so hard for NDS to force DTV into making a deal with them for continued support on the new card? If it was the same then it would have been a slam dunk, don't you think? Courts are something you can count on being factual.

Any way, as I said this is really getting too close to causing the site legal problems, so time to just put a period to it and let everyone believe what they want to.

[Sithlord]

Originally posted by morgana
But why then was it so hard for NDS to force DTV into making a deal with them for continued support on the new card? If it was the same then it would have been a slam dunk, don't you think?

One word: Money.

The DTV/NDS fight had nothing to do with technical specifics. It's all about money.

[Alfi]

Originally posted by Sithlord
One word: Money.

The DTV/NDS fight had nothing to do with technical specifics. It's all about money.

For many reasons that strikes me as a true assessment of the situation. We are talking about a LARGE amount involved here.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Folks,

Why do people find it strange that this IS about money. This is a business, DTV's business into which they invested a lot of MONEY. Business are usually about MONEY, why would this one be any different.


As to it being a hobby until people started to charge, why what poppycock that is. Cards and technology were SOLD long before anyone came along and started to offer Freeware. And anyone who understands the real McCoy knows full well that cards that were being sold with programs by the professionals, were much better than any of the freeware, which at first was pretty elementary. But those only came along much later when some trusting idiot gave out his pprogram to a friend after he had raked in his fortune. In his heart of hearts he knew it would now get away from him (or them).

And now, since DTV is pressing so hard to shut down all the web sites, they will very likely SUCCEED at that and lose total understanding of what is going on in the business. It certainly wont be freeware and it will NEVER be as wide spread as it was a couple of years ago. So perhaps the impression that there is little apparent piracy will make them happy and they will have no one else to hassle. So they will have to go back to the business of Satellite again and move beyond the lawsuits and crap.

If there is no hack of their cards then you will see a mass switch to Charlies system and he will gain so dramatically on subscribers that he will have more subs than DTV has. And when he has the LEAD in market share, he too will seek to find a way to stop piracy through technology.

Security of a card is also SIMPLY MONEY. The more that is paid for the card, the more trickery can be employed to make it exceedingly difficult to hack and the more can be built in to the card to ECM it every day if necessary. Its ONLY a matter of MONEY.

Satellite companies have a choice that is determined by MONEY. They can provide an expensive card, with exceedingly good security measures and good future management (ECM's etc.) and hope that they can keep that card in service for a number of years, or they can use the $8.00 wonders they have used to date, make them difficult enough to last for a year and a half to two years and then swap them every two years, needed or not.

DTV are a company who do NOTHING themselves, they essentially hire everything out right down to having someone else do their billing for them. But they may now have realized that the one thing they needed to do for themselves, in house, was handle their own security. It seems they may have had some very untrustworthy partners or it was planned that way but did not go according to plan.

But it ain't that simple to do. So in my opinion, these latest cards are not the VERY EXPENSIVE wonders they could be, but rather a slightly more expensive card that they hope will give them the time to do a WHOPPER of a design THEMSELVES if they remain in the business.

Its even possible that their next generation RECEIVER will have the expensive functionality built into the receiver and that it will be card less when first delivered. Along the lines of the Star Choice unit already out there. Receivers do not last forever and there are many units now going into their 10th year of service. And there are new compression schemes that could increase their number of channels per transponder by 50% maybe more. That could save them a lot of money on satellites. And then they could have a card adjunct to that if it was later hacked. Now the card would be used and it could cause the function of the built in system to function totally differently. Code never executed as a stand alone could now kick in as an adjunct to a new card (they hope years away). The addition of a very good card to a very good built in system could be very difficult indeed to hack.

So they have LOTS of options and no matter what one poster said above, DTV WILL NOT be explaining anything at all to anyone, not even the simplest detail.

So sit back and watch folks but it will be a very different ball game in the future. And there will be no freeware hacks sent over the Internet to anyone. If there is a hack it is far more likely to be a complete new receiver that does what is required itself, in its interior. It too will have the capability to add a card but instead of being a hack of what the satellite supplier is using, it will deal with the data stream in ITS OWN WAY via its own system. It ont infringe copyright by using their code and it may be exceedingly difficult to prove that it even infringes any patent protection since it will play many other Satellite channels as well. Shucks it may EVEN be UNIX based. And who knows, it may even be capable of BOTH systems or in fact MULTIPLE systems since there remain quite the number of FREE-to-AIR systems around.

So is it about MONEY? What the H E L L else would a business be about.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif
Thanks & Good Luck ,

<a href="mailto:ttrk@legal-rights.org"><font color="#FF0000" size="5"><strong><u>To </u></strong></font><font color="#FF4800" size="5"><strong><u>Th</u></strong></font><font color="#FF6200" size="5"><strong><u>e </u></strong></font><font color="#FF7002" size="5"><strong><u>RE</u></strong></font><font color="#FF9006" size="5"><strong><u>AL </u></strong></font><font color="#FFB508" size="5"><strong><u>Ki</u></strong></font><font color="#FFD014" size="5"><strong><u>ng!!</u></strong></font></a>

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[Dishman mtl]

Interesting reading!

No change in the stream = no new card....

[megados]

Yes it IS all about money. Anyone who believes any differently simply hasn't been paying attention. DTV is now at a crossroads and their business tactics recently have been about short-term gains. TTRK is very right, in that there are more than enough ways to put out a cardless system, whereby complete control of the system can be maintained by the service provider. Just off the top of my old feeble mind, I can think of a couple ways to do this, while ensuring the damn thing has to be connected to the phone line in order to keep operating. There are even ways to do it where there's no phone service to a home. But these methods cost money. It becomes a trade-off on what they're willing to accept ppiracy-wise, versus what they're willing to spend for security. Someone makes that decision, and once they do, they're kind of stuck with it. At this time, DTV has to spend some bux shoring up their cheapo system, because they let things get way out of hand. They're stuck with a card-based system; it's a lot cheaper, and much simpler to try to come up with cards, now that they have their eggs in that basket, so-to-speak. It would be a disaster, both financially, as well as on a public-relations issue if they were to try to change how their entire system works.

[ozzy67]

The reason why i think that directv has not just spent the money to completely change the way it provides it's services also may be that the media would give a lot of unwanted attention to the Directv piracy problem if Directv just came out and said OK! we are rolling out our new "cardless" system and the media would say "well, Directv must have had a massive piracy problem.
It is important to remember that they do not want to give the piracy issue to much airtime in my opinion and that is why they have put up with it to this point.jmo
I believe and always have believed that they still put their hopes on an unhackable card system in the future.