Sirius settles dispute with music firms over S50

[doberman007]

Sirius Settles Rift
With Music Firms
Over Radio Device

By ETHAN SMITH and SARAH MCBRIDE
March 18, 2006

In a first step toward resolving a long-simmering standoff, at least
two recorded music companies have reached agreements with Sirius
Satellite Radio Inc. allowing their music to be played on a new
satellite radio unit that lets users store tunes and play them later,
like an iPod.

The four global music companies had been upset at the prospect that the
$330 device, called the S50, effectively allows users to treat music
stored on it as though they had bought it. For instance, the device
lets users "disaggregate" a recorded broadcast into individual songs
and program them into customized playlists. The record companies have
said they should be paid more than the modest licensing fee they
receive when a song is broadcast on satellite radio.

Under the agreements, the record companies will receive a payment for
every one of the devices in question that is sold. The companies that
reached the agreements are Warner Music Group Corp. and Vivendi
Universal SA's Universal Music Group. EMI Group PLC and Sony BMG Music
Entertainment, a joint venture of Sony Corp. and Bertelsmann AG, are in
talks with Sirius, according to people familiar with the matter, but it
is unclear how close they are to agreements.

Terms of Sirius's agreements with Universal and Warner were not
disclosed. In addition to the fee for each device, the manufacturing
run of the device is to be capped at a number that was not disclosed.
The agreement is limited in scope, applying only to the S50, not to
future devices with similar capabilities.

Sirius's satellite-radio rival, XM Satellite Radio Holdings Inc., is
close to launching two devices with similar capabilities to the S50.
The music companies have expressed similar reservations about those
devices, but so far they have not reached the market.

Spokesmen for Warner Music and Universal Music confirmed the agreement
with Sirius. A spokeswoman for EMI couldn't be reached. A spokesman for
Sony BMG said his company hadn't signed an agreement. A spokesman for
Sirius couldn't be reached.

Write to Ethan Smith at ethan.smith@wsj.com and Sarah McBride at
sarah.mcbride@wsj.com

[LinkedList]

> Terms of Sirius's agreements with Universal and Warner were not
> disclosed. In addition to the fee for each device, the manufacturing
> run of the device is to be capped at a number that was not disclosed.
> The agreement is limited in scope, applying only to the S50, not to
> future devices with similar capabilities.

This is a bizarre arrangement. I'll swear, I believe Sirius is going to
freaking destroy the business before it gets running.

[LinkedList]

If you want an S50 you'd better get it quickly.

Looks like they have had to agree to pay a per-unit fee and stop building
them to keep from getting sued.

Another result of rushing the S50 to market before Christmas.

Future models obviously will obviously have to follow XM's lead and offer a
download option.

Wonder what that does to the schedule on the new "wearable"....

What a mess.

[sirocco]

But I can record Sirius radio onto tape cassette and nobody objects. This
is the screwy part.



"doberman007" <sirius007@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142651096.812374.60140@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Sirius Settles Rift
> With Music Firms
> Over Radio Device
>
> By ETHAN SMITH and SARAH MCBRIDE
> March 18, 2006
>
> In a first step toward resolving a long-simmering standoff, at least
> two recorded music companies have reached agreements with Sirius
> Satellite Radio Inc. allowing their music to be played on a new
> satellite radio unit that lets users store tunes and play them later,
> like an iPod.
>
> The four global music companies had been upset at the prospect that the
> $330 device, called the S50, effectively allows users to treat music
> stored on it as though they had bought it. For instance, the device
> lets users "disaggregate" a recorded broadcast into individual songs
> and program them into customized playlists. The record companies have
> said they should be paid more than the modest licensing fee they
> receive when a song is broadcast on satellite radio.
>
> Under the agreements, the record companies will receive a payment for
> every one of the devices in question that is sold. The companies that
> reached the agreements are Warner Music Group Corp. and Vivendi
> Universal SA's Universal Music Group. EMI Group PLC and Sony BMG Music
> Entertainment, a joint venture of Sony Corp. and Bertelsmann AG, are in
> talks with Sirius, according to people familiar with the matter, but it
> is unclear how close they are to agreements.
>
> Terms of Sirius's agreements with Universal and Warner were not
> disclosed. In addition to the fee for each device, the manufacturing
> run of the device is to be capped at a number that was not disclosed.
> The agreement is limited in scope, applying only to the S50, not to
> future devices with similar capabilities.
>
> Sirius's satellite-radio rival, XM Satellite Radio Holdings Inc., is
> close to launching two devices with similar capabilities to the S50.
> The music companies have expressed similar reservations about those
> devices, but so far they have not reached the market.
>
> Spokesmen for Warner Music and Universal Music confirmed the agreement
> with Sirius. A spokeswoman for EMI couldn't be reached. A spokesman for
> Sony BMG said his company hadn't signed an agreement. A spokesman for
> Sirius couldn't be reached.
>
> Write to Ethan Smith at ethan.smith@wsj.com and Sarah McBride at
> sarah.mcbride@wsj.com
>

[J. Fowler]

LinkedList wrote:
>>Terms of Sirius's agreements with Universal and Warner were not
>>disclosed. In addition to the fee for each device, the manufacturing
>>run of the device is to be capped at a number that was not disclosed.
>>The agreement is limited in scope, applying only to the S50, not to
>>future devices with similar capabilities.
>
>
> This is a bizarre arrangement. I'll swear, I believe Sirius is going to
> freaking destroy the business before it gets running.
>

Sirius could have taken this to court and likely won. "The agreement is
limited in scope, applying only to the S50, not to future devices with
similar capabilities." Only a fool would assume the RIAA didn't just set
a precedent for future devices. The RIAA already charges them for their
playlist, and now they are digging into the sales of equipment? This is
awful.

[doberman007]

Frontmed.....

Sirius already stated their new unit would have a buy button This was
widely known at CES.

Schedule is unchanged

[LinkedList]

>
> Sirius already stated their new unit would have a buy button This was
> widely known at CES.
>
> Schedule is unchanged

We'll see.

[LinkedList]

"doberman007" <sirius007@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142692786.383833.40220@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Frontmed.....
>
> Sirius already stated their new unit would have a buy button This was
> widely known at CES.
>
> Schedule is unchanged

The buy button doesn't automatically solve the problem.

The S50 has no built-in DRM capability. If one fills the S50 with content
owned by music companies, then discontinues their Sirius subscription, the
music companies don't get paid for the future use of the content. This is
why they were in a strong position to demand money from Sirius and
essentially stop production of the S50.

The XM Nexus does have DRM capability -- if the user drops the XM
subscription, he cannot continue to use the stored content -- thus, the
music companies are able to continue receiving their revenue stream and they
don't have a problem with it.

As to the "schedule", the "Buy" button is one element of it. But the DRM
involves significant software changes, and that's not ever a good thing.

At the very least, I suspect this means the S50 is, as of today, an orphaned
product.

[LinkedList]

>
> Under the agreements, the record companies will receive a payment for
> every one of the devices in question that is sold. The companies that
> reached the agreements are Warner Music Group Corp. and Vivendi
> Universal SA's Universal Music Group. EMI Group PLC and Sony BMG Music
> Entertainment, a joint venture of Sony Corp. and Bertelsmann AG, are in
> talks with Sirius, according to people familiar with the matter, but it
> is unclear how close they are to agreements.
>
>
> Spokesmen for Warner Music and Universal Music confirmed the agreement
> with Sirius. A spokeswoman for EMI couldn't be reached. A spokesman for
> Sony BMG said his company hadn't signed an agreement. A spokesman for
> Sirius couldn't be reached.
>

In looking at this again, it seems the S50 is going to prove to be a very
expensive item for Sirius. Certainly, EMI and BMG are going to want at
least as much as Warner & Vivendi got.

The S50 is proving to be a fairly expensive device for sirius, it would
appear.

[Rich]

>>>The S50 is proving to be a fairly expensive device for sirius

If you think so, but I know it was way more expensive for XM. BTW,
when is XM going to catch up to Sirius' technology? I saw the Dell DJ
Ditty advertised but without XM. What's the deal? Parsons and Pornero
ought to pay Mel for negotiating with the label owners, he is much
better at it than the PeePee brothers.

[Dr. Droo]

LinkedList wrote:
> The S50 has no built-in DRM capability. If one fills the S50 with content
> owned by music companies, then discontinues their Sirius subscription, the
> music companies don't get paid for the future use of the content.

How are you sure, have you deactivated one to find out?

There is DRM in the sense that the content is encrypted, also uses a
nearly proprietary codec, and cannot be shared amongst other S50 units
and with computers. I do believe the material eventually expires too.

--D

[ThirdNormalForm]

> I do believe the material eventually expires too.

Oh, you do? And how, exactly, do you think that works? How does the S50
know whether or not you have a valid subscription?

Thanks.

[Dr. Droo]

ThirdNormalForm wrote:
> Oh, you do? And how, exactly, do you think that works? How does the S50
> know whether or not you have a valid subscription?
>
> Thanks.

The baseband and memory half of the chipset are in the S50 itself. The
S50 always has access to what the subscription status is. Whether or
not they prod for it I'm not sure. It is trivial for them to prod for
a subscription if they do not already. For instance - The channel (PID
and VPID) table, amongst other things, are stored in the S50 itself as
well as in the baseband flash.

Certainly, there are ways around this and those same things would apply
with the XM units as well. You can simply eclipse the antenna before
you unsubscribe and remove the battery and reinsert it.. I doubt
they're going to put a RTC in either unit, so it probably has no
concept of time after that.

These same problems are going to exist for XM if they are not doing
loop storage like on the MyFi. The issue is about being able to single
out storage of tracks off the service. Having a buy button is of
little consequence as (as you can see from the S50 forums) most people
don't have qualms about saving tracks from the service without paying
for a track. If I were to buy a track then ~12 cents at allofmp3.com
is a better deal than Napster, iTunes, etc.

--D

[ThirdNormalForm]

>
> The baseband and memory half of the chipset are in the S50 itself. The
> S50 always has access to what the subscription status is. Whether or
> not they prod for it I'm not sure. It is trivial for them to prod for
> a subscription if they do not already. For instance - The channel (PID
> and VPID) table, amongst other things, are stored in the S50 itself as
> well as in the baseband flash.

The S50, out of its dock (where it has no ability to receive signal from the
satellites), has no idea whether there is a valid subscription or not. It
simply has no way of getting that information. It doesn't take a rocket
scientist to figure this out.

> Certainly, there are ways around this and those same things would apply
> with the XM units as well. You can simply eclipse the antenna before
> you unsubscribe and remove the battery and reinsert it.. I doubt
> they're going to put a RTC in either unit, so it probably has no
> concept of time after that.
>

The XM Nexus has DRM built in so that it DOES, in fact, "know" whether there
is an active subscription. The S50 does not have this. Which is the
problem for Sirius. A RTC isn't the only way to solve this problem.

And you are wrong. You can't defeat the Nexus' DRM by "eclipsing" the
antenna before unsubscribing.

> These same problems are going to exist for XM if they are not doing
> loop storage like on the MyFi.

Wrong. The same problems don't exist for the XM.

> The issue is about being able to single
> out storage of tracks off the service.

No, that is one issue. But that does not solve the problem the music
companies are concerned with, which is having the recorded tracks available
after the subscription is cancelled.

> Having a buy button is of
> little consequence as (as you can see from the S50 forums) most people
> don't have qualms about saving tracks from the service without paying
> for a track.

The music industry just wants to insure it is being paid.

You obviously don't comprehend the issues here. The bottom line is that the
DRM issues were thought out and dealt with by XM, and were ignored creating
huge problems by Sirius. A portion of which problems Sirius paid to solve
last week. The balance which remains unresolved.

And this is the reason that everyone who bought an S50 now owns an obsolete
piece of equipment. If you think Sirius is going to continue writing code
for the S50 you have to be either nuts or the worlds biggest optimist.

[Dr. Droo]

ThirdNormalForm wrote:
> The S50, out of its dock (where it has no ability to receive signal from the
> satellites), has no idea whether there is a valid subscription or not. It
> simply has no way of getting that information. It doesn't take a rocket
> scientist to figure this out.

Again, activation is stored in the baseband processor. If the S50 is
deactivated, the S50 has access to this data ON OR OFF the dock,
because it is stored in a chip that's INSIDE the S50. It's actually
stored in the baseband flash. The only situation is if it never makes
its way BACK to the dock to get a deactivation blast.

Like I said, whether they make USE of this data I do not know, but I do
know that the subscription data is readily available WITHOUT the need
of the tuner module that is in the cradle.

> And you are wrong. You can't defeat the Nexus' DRM by "eclipsing" the
> antenna before unsubscribing.

We shall see, Frontmed.. If you never connect the Nexus to a computer
again and you eclipse the antenna, I bet it'll keep playing right along
with the stored content.

> Wrong. The same problems don't exist for the XM.

We shall see, Frontmed.

> No, that is one issue. But that does not solve the problem the music
> companies are concerned with, which is having the recorded tracks available
> after the subscription is cancelled.

The music companies have a problem with you being able to store the
tracks infinitely, even with subscription as well.

> The music industry just wants to insure it is being paid.

Course they do, and that's why Sirius is and has been working for a
solution. ANY company that tries to single out any track on a radio
service is going to result in a situation like this. The Myfi uses a
loop record, which is a different deal entirely.

If XM allows you to save single tracks from the radio stream (ala Love
Button), they open themselves up to the same situation.

> You obviously don't comprehend the issues here. The bottom line is that the
> DRM issues were thought out and dealt with by XM, and were ignored creating
> huge problems by Sirius. A portion of which problems Sirius paid to solve
> last week. The balance which remains unresolved.

You have YET to prove that they were thought out by XM. If someone
eclipses the antenna, clears any power (for running clock) and does not
connect the unit to the computer, it has no knowledge of time (so it
can't expire by time) and it has no knowledge of subscription (because
the subscription is still intact if the antenna is eclipsed, even if it
was deactivated). This rule ALSO applies to the S50.

> And this is the reason that everyone who bought an S50 now owns an obsolete
> piece of equipment. If you think Sirius is going to continue writing code
> for the S50 you have to be either nuts or the worlds biggest optimist.

I have no reason to believe they won't be so far, neither do you.
You're just trying to post your doom and gloom.

--D

[ThirdNormalForm]

>
> Again, activation is stored in the baseband processor. If the S50 is
> deactivated, the S50 has access to this data ON OR OFF the dock,
> because it is stored in a chip that's INSIDE the S50. It's actually
> stored in the baseband flash. The only situation is if it never makes
> its way BACK to the dock to get a deactivation blast.

Exactly, which is why the music companies [rightfully] have an issue with
it.

> Like I said, whether they make USE of this data I do not know, but I do
know that the subscription data is readily available WITHOUT the need
> of the tuner module that is in the cradle.

There is no basis for "making use of it". If the device is undocked
[forever], the music you have downloaded via satellite is yours forever.
That's why the music companies are demanding [and receiving] money from
Sirius.

a
> We shall see, Frontmed.. If you never connect the Nexus to a computer
> again and you eclipse the antenna, I bet it'll keep playing right along
> with the stored content.

Wrong. The Nexus must be docked for 8 hours a month or the device will
consider the subscription to be invalid. If the subscription is invalided,
downloaded XM content is inaccessible.


> > Wrong. The same problems don't exist for the XM.
>
> We shall see, Frontmed.
>

Well, some of us shall see. Some of us can see now.

>
> The music companies have a problem with you being able to store the
> tracks infinitely, even with subscription as well.

No, they don't. If you have a subscription, they are being paid for the
tracks. Their problem, rightfully, is if there is no subscription fee
coming in AND they haven't been paid for the tracks outright, then the music
is being used at no charge, which is not a proper outcome and is prohibited.

In its rush to get the S50 out the door, Sirius did not implement any such
limitations. So, they have had to negotiate an agreement to pay so much per
unit to cover this cost. XM had the good sense to resolve the issue
correctly before releasing the product.

> > The music industry just wants to insure it is being paid.
>
> Course they do, and that's why Sirius is and has been working for a
> solution. ANY company that tries to single out any track on a radio
> service is going to result in a situation like this. The Myfi uses a
> loop record, which is a different deal entirely.

XM's new devices allow you to single out individual tracks, leave them
recorded on the device, deleting some tracks and not others, and creating
your own playlists at will. And the music industry has no problem with it,
because XM got their ---- together and handled it.

> If XM allows you to save single tracks from the radio stream (ala Love
> Button), they open themselves up to the same situation.
>

Again, you're wrong. The problem is not the saving of tracks. The problem
is the saving of tracks without a subscription. As previously stated, XM's
new devices have the ability to save tracks at will, even going back to the
beginning of the track to capture it.

> > You obviously don't comprehend the issues here. The bottom line is that
the
> > DRM issues were thought out and dealt with by XM, and were ignored
creating
> > huge problems by Sirius. A portion of which problems Sirius paid to
solve
> > last week. The balance which remains unresolved.
>
> You have YET to prove that they were thought out by XM. If someone
> eclipses the antenna, clears any power (for running clock) and does not
> connect the unit to the computer, it has no knowledge of time (so it
> can't expire by time) and it has no knowledge of subscription (because
> the subscription is still intact if the antenna is eclipsed, even if it
> was deactivated). This rule ALSO applies to the S50.

Again, I explained above that the Nexus requires that the device be docked
monthly or the subscription expires along with the previously recorded XM
material. The S50 has no such capability. Which is the problem.

> > And this is the reason that everyone who bought an S50 now owns an
obsolete
> > piece of equipment. If you think Sirius is going to continue writing
code
> > for the S50 you have to be either nuts or the worlds biggest optimist.
>
> I have no reason to believe they won't be so far, neither do you.
> You're just trying to post your doom and gloom.

LOL. They have just agreed to quit building them, with a very small number
of units sold. If you think Sirius is going to continue developing patches
for them, you are awfully naive.

[Dr. Droo]

ThirdNormalForm wrote:
> Wrong. The Nexus must be docked for 8 hours a month or the device will
> consider the subscription to be invalid. If the subscription is invalided,
> downloaded XM content is inaccessible.

We shall see. I'm sure there will be a way to get around it.

> No, they don't. If you have a subscription, they are being paid for the
> tracks. Their problem, rightfully, is if there is no subscription fee
> coming in AND they haven't been paid for the tracks outright, then the music
> is being used at no charge, which is not a proper outcome and is prohibited.

That's not what has been stated. Their concern was established as
having many folds, one being the ability to make any given track a
single entity and play at will without any monetary benefit.

> In its rush to get the S50 out the door, Sirius did not implement any such
> limitations. So, they have had to negotiate an agreement to pay so much per
> unit to cover this cost. XM had the good sense to resolve the issue
> correctly before releasing the product.

'Music' CD-Rs have an apparent cost for royalties too. It's not
entirely out of line to charge a per unit fee.

> XM's new devices allow you to single out individual tracks, leave them
> recorded on the device, deleting some tracks and not others, and creating
> your own playlists at will. And the music industry has no problem with it,
> because XM got their ---- together and handled it.

Again, so you state. There's nothing to say they won't come back at
this and have a similar backlash.

> LOL. They have just agreed to quit building them, with a very small number
> of units sold. If you think Sirius is going to continue developing patches
> for them, you are awfully naive.

As far as I know they have agreed to limit the number built and sold.
I don't see where it's been stated that number has been surpassed.
I've been out of town for the last few days so perhaps I'm overlooking
part of the article.

Come mid-year Sirius'll have their new unit out. I'd think there are
already enough S50s in the system or will be in the system soon to
cover the sales up to that point.

If Humax/Directed and/or Sirius stop covering the product, it will be a
class action situation for sure. I'm sure all parties involved
appreciate that possiblity. I will not exclude myself from the class
either, even though I've had no issues with my S50 since November when
I bought it.

--D

[ThirdNormalForm]

>
> We shall see. I'm sure there will be a way to get around it.
>

The point is that XM's DRM has satisfied the requirements of the music
companies. Sirius' hasn't, owing largely to a mad rush to get the S50 out
before Christmas. You and other Siriots here were deriding XM for
withholding the Nexus, and by having done so, they nipped the problem in the
bud. Sirius, OTOH, has now been stopped from building S50s, required to pay
per-unit fees to two of the music companies, and clearly will have to pay
even more to the others.

The bottom line is this was another huge bungle for Sirius and another
example prudent execution by XM. Yet, you and other Siriots criticized XM.
XM, as it turns out, made the correct decision.


> That's not what has been stated. Their concern was established as
> having many folds, one being the ability to make any given track a
> single entity and play at will without any monetary benefit.

Well, they don't want that, obviously -- which XM has addressed and
apparently Sirius thinks it will address at some upcoming date. But they
also want the tracks to die with the subscription. Neither of these two
conditions, taken alone, is sufficient.


> 'Music' CD-Rs have an apparent cost for royalties too. It's not
> entirely out of line to charge a per unit fee.

They tried. But there is a fundamental difference -- in the case of the CD,
you're talking about the media, in the case of the downloaded track, you're
talking about the bits.

> > XM's new devices allow you to single out individual tracks, leave them
> > recorded on the device, deleting some tracks and not others, and
creating
> > your own playlists at will. And the music industry has no problem with
it,
> > because XM got their ---- together and handled it.
>
> Again, so you state. There's nothing to say they won't come back at
> this and have a similar backlash.

I state it because I have specific knowledge about it. And there will not
be a similar backlash because Xm has taken extraordinary steps to insure
compliance with the current DRM law. Sirius, in its haste, did not. You
will recall we discussed this as being a potential problem at the time for
Sirius but not for XM. This is the same Sirius haste that delivered one of
the buggiest consumer products I've seen in years.

> > LOL. They have just agreed to quit building them, with a very small
number
> > of units sold. If you think Sirius is going to continue developing
patches
> > for them, you are awfully naive.
>
> As far as I know they have agreed to limit the number built and sold.
> I don't see where it's been stated that number has been surpassed.
> I've been out of town for the last few days so perhaps I'm overlooking
> part of the article.

No, they didn't openly state that the number has been surpassed. But it is
pretty obvious that they didn't negotiate a settlement that allows them to
continue building these devices. Effective immediately, production will
stop. IT would make no sense otherwise. The disclosure wouldn't have been
made because it serves no purpose other than to allow people to know how
many were built, which Sirius wouldn't have wanted to do. The current
production run may be permitted to finish (probably not), but that is it.
Watch and see.

> Come mid-year Sirius'll have their new unit out. I'd think there are
> already enough S50s in the system or will be in the system soon to
> cover the sales up to that point.

I don't think anyone expects the new Sirius unit out by June 30 (mid-year).
At this point, they will be doing well to get it done by October.

> If Humax/Directed and/or Sirius stop covering the product, it will be a
> class action situation for sure. I'm sure all parties involved
> appreciate that possiblity. I will not exclude myself from the class
> either, even though I've had no issues with my S50 since November when
> I bought it.
>

I don't know about "covering". I don't think you'll see many software
updates for it. And these pipe dreams we were hearing about (like
displaying video and album artwork) are pipe dreams. The S50 is history.
The questiono now is whether this delays the new device and if so, by how
long.

[Rich]

>>The point is that XM's DRM has satisfied the requirements of the music companies.

Are you really this stupid?

[Dr. Droo]

ThirdNormalForm wrote:
> Sirius, OTOH, has now been stopped from building S50s

They were going to stop building S50s in favor of the new product
anyway. This isn't realyl a big issue.

> The bottom line is this was another huge bungle for Sirius and another
> example prudent execution by XM. Yet, you and other Siriots criticized XM.
> XM, as it turns out, made the correct decision.

I'm not so sure they made the correct decision. The RIAA randomly
decides to go after companies for various reasons. I think if anything
it might've delayed things.

> Well, they don't want that, obviously -- which XM has addressed and
> apparently Sirius thinks it will address at some upcoming date. But they
> also want the tracks to die with the subscription. Neither of these two
> conditions, taken alone, is sufficient.

Sirius could implement both if they wanted. My Sirius Studio could
simply be upgraded to check the status of the ESN online when docked.
There's no way to upload songs properly to the unit without MSS and
most people with S50s (maybe even all) have an active Sirius
subscription so they'd upgrade anyway.

> They tried. But there is a fundamental difference -- in the case of the CD,
> you're talking about the media, in the case of the downloaded track, you're
> talking about the bits.

Yes but we could be talking about the appliance itself, which would be
'taxed' for the privilege. Canada used to tax iPods for this reason, I
think they just stopped doing that recently.

> I state it because I have specific knowledge about it.

You state a lot of things which have come back to bite you on the ass.

> No, they didn't openly state that the number has been surpassed. But it is
> pretty obvious that they didn't negotiate a settlement that allows them to
> continue building these devices.

See remarks above about new product coming so it is moot.

> I don't think anyone expects the new Sirius unit out by June 30 (mid-year).
> At this point, they will be doing well to get it done by October.

We'll see.

> I don't know about "covering". I don't think you'll see many software
> updates for it. And these pipe dreams we were hearing about (like
> displaying video and album artwork) are pipe dreams. The S50 is history.
> The questiono now is whether this delays the new device and if so, by how
> long.

Software updates to fix some peoples problems is part of 'covering' the
product.. If they fail to do that, especially up until November
(warranty period) then it's certainly something that could become a
Class Action situation.

Providing NEW features is another story entirely, but they do have a
few situations that certainly should be fixed for those who have issues
or they should buy back the units.

--D

[ThirdNormalForm]

>
> They were going to stop building S50s in favor of the new product
> anyway. This isn't realyl a big issue.

You must have missed the part about the S50 being the "DNA" for an entire
new line of products. If you think they WANTED to stop building them now,
five months in, you're nuts.

>
> > The bottom line is this was another huge bungle for Sirius and another
> > example prudent execution by XM. Yet, you and other Siriots criticized
XM.
> > XM, as it turns out, made the correct decision.
>
> I'm not so sure they made the correct decision. The RIAA randomly
> decides to go after companies for various reasons. I think if anything
> it might've delayed things.
>

Yeah, it probably did. Like getting the new portable out. Assuming, of
course, they can get the repeaters up that are required to service one.

> > Well, they don't want that, obviously -- which XM has addressed and
> > apparently Sirius thinks it will address at some upcoming date. But
they
> > also want the tracks to die with the subscription. Neither of these two
> > conditions, taken alone, is sufficient.
>
> Sirius could implement both if they wanted. My Sirius Studio could
> simply be upgraded to check the status of the ESN online when docked.
> There's no way to upload songs properly to the unit without MSS and
> most people with S50s (maybe even all) have an active Sirius
> subscription so they'd upgrade anyway.

That would do what the music companies want and are entitled to. The point
is that the music companies do not want to set a precedent suggesting that
expiration of tracks has to be proactive on the part of the receiver. Why?
Because it is obvious that much, much larger flash densities are on the
horizon. Five years from now a flash-based player could store a lifetime's
worth of music. The owner has a subscription for long enough to fill his
player, discontinues the subscription (and the music companies' revenue
stream), but keeps the music. This is where the S50 fails to meet their
demands.

> > They tried. But there is a fundamental difference -- in the case of the
CD,
> > you're talking about the media, in the case of the downloaded track,
you're
> > talking about the bits.
>
> Yes but we could be talking about the appliance itself, which would be
> 'taxed' for the privilege. Canada used to tax iPods for this reason, I
> think they just stopped doing that recently.
>

I guess. Different subject, though.

> > I state it because I have specific knowledge about it.
>
> You state a lot of things which have come back to bite you on the ass.
>

Well, opinions, sure. Most of us have. But this isn't an opinion.

> > No, they didn't openly state that the number has been surpassed. But it
is
> > pretty obvious that they didn't negotiate a settlement that allows them
to
> > continue building these devices.
>
> See remarks above about new product coming so it is moot.

We don't know WHEN any new product is coming. Last I heard, it was "late
summer" -- but that was before this settlement. At this point, we have no
idea whether it is "late summer" or "late next summer".

>
> > I don't know about "covering". I don't think you'll see many software
> > updates for it. And these pipe dreams we were hearing about (like
> > displaying video and album artwork) are pipe dreams. The S50 is
history.
> > The questiono now is whether this delays the new device and if so, by
how
> > long.
>
> Software updates to fix some peoples problems is part of 'covering' the
> product.. If they fail to do that, especially up until November
> (warranty period) then it's certainly something that could become a
> Class Action situation.

LOL. Software updates (the PC application) are likely to continue, as
future products surely will be based on the same application. Firmware
updates are a different matter. It will be interesting to see just how
committed they are to the S50 in this respect.

> Providing NEW features is another story entirely, but they do have a
> few situations that certainly should be fixed for those who have issues
> or they should buy back the units.
>


Uh-huh.

[Dr. Droo]

ThirdNormalForm wrote:
> You must have missed the part about the S50 being the "DNA" for an entire
> new line of products. If you think they WANTED to stop building them now,
> five months in, you're nuts.

I'm saying it's a non-issue..

The S50 can be the DNA for other products, they can just build on what
they need aside from it.. This situation with the labels is months old
as far as I know. They certainly have had time to do what needs to be
done.

> Yeah, it probably did. Like getting the new portable out. Assuming, of
> course, they can get the repeaters up that are required to service one.

It'll still work here fine since the angle is well above any
obstructions here. I can't say the same for XM. I can't say that I
would have much use for such a radio though. If I'm not here or in the
car I'm usually doing something that would bleed out any audio, such as
snowmobiling.

> That would do what the music companies want and are entitled to.

The music companies seem to vary in what they 'want'. This is what
they want today. If a product has success, they decide they want
different things.

> I guess. Different subject, though.

It's still something that could be taxed per unit. This may actually
make sense in some situations where they can't easily measure the
amount of content stored. The codec folks charge per unit as well,
such as Coding Technologies.

> Well, opinions, sure. Most of us have. But this isn't an opinion.

Most things you say are opinion, many of which end up not panning out
as you describe. It makes sense you roll your idenitity so that people
have to work Search a little harder when pointing this out to you.

> We don't know WHEN any new product is coming. Last I heard, it was "late
> summer" -- but that was before this settlement. At this point, we have no
> idea whether it is "late summer" or "late next summer".

I'm hearing ~July. I will trust that until that passes. I'm not in
the market to replace my receiver right now, probably next year or year
after.

> LOL. Software updates (the PC application) are likely to continue, as
> future products surely will be based on the same application. Firmware
> updates are a different matter. It will be interesting to see just how
> committed they are to the S50 in this respect.

I do suspect we'll see more of both, and we should to correct any
issues that occur enough to warrant it.

They would be looking at a likely Class Action if they opt to not
supporting the product, especially with certain groups of people having
problems.

--D