HELP, NOT SURE WHAT TO DO U.S. CUSTOMS SEIZED PROGRAMMER ???

[CaptMidnite]

Have any of you had programmers or unloopers seized by U.S.Customs & if so did you have to pay a fine or did you just forfeit or equipment ? I recently ordered a smart card programmer from Canada, only to have it seized by U.S. Customs while in route via FedEX. I received a letter from U.S. Customs (SCP-36) explaining my options to have a hearing or forfeit the programmer. The letter also had a page stating that a civil penalty could be assessed in this matter. It had 2 boxes & neither one was checked by them. One said details on a civil penalty are in the attached letter (which it was not) & the other box also unchecked said that it is being prepared & will be mailed shortly. So my concern is that if I don't fight this I may get a letter in the near future stating I must pay a fine.

So it's not enough for these low lifes to steal our packages from us they can also fine us. My question is this, have any of you had things seized by Customs & had to pay a fine in addition to forteiture of your property ? They can have the $50.00 programmer but if I'm going to have to pay a fine then I will fight this thing & request a hearing. These programmers can be used to program electronic door locks (which is what I use it for:D,honestly) & things other then test cards so I don't see how they can ban them in the U.S. I guess our hand guns will be the next thing they will ban.
If any of you have been in this same situation please share it with me. I'm not sure what I should do ??? :confused:

[Sgt_Stedenko]

They probably seized it because it came from a Canadian dealer that sells DSS testing equipment. I'm sure they know of all the places that do so.

If I were you (just my opinion), I'd let it go.

Buy one from a US company. That way Customs won't get involved.

[NightRaid]

I being a Canadian Dealer, we have not had anything seized that was sent by the regular postal system. Almost always, if you send using a courier, it will be siezed. It seems the company you ordered from has not been in business for very long since they would already know this. It also depends what the company put on the package as to the contents of the package.

Also I agree that you should just let it go and contact the dealer you bought from and they "should" send you another. Make sure to state that you want it sent regular air mail. and that there is no written instructions or web site address inside the box.

[simple]

I agree...

Major couriers are no doubt being paid by Dave for the seizure of programming products, I am sure fedex, ups and purolator are more then willing to have Dave line their pockets, remember that all the above have their own in house customs inspectors.... Send via regular mail as it would be sent via a federal agency in which Dave couldnt pay off.


Simple.

[gunsmoke2]

Just walk away.. you will get a standard letter and just throw it away.

NightRaid aren't you somewhat in conflict with your post on this thread ?


http://www.dsschat.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=63350


You say smartcard readers are legal in the US yet you suggest avoiding using courier to avoid having them being *seized* by US Customs for violating certain US statues..I know you refer that they are only illegal if going to be used in DSS applications.. but that is the only application that these readers will be used in..

GS2

[CaptMidnite]

I'll let it go as long as I don't have to pay a fine. But if they try & fine me for this then the fight is on. It's just a little nerve racking :eek: to get a letter from a government that can pretty much do anything to their people that they want to & get by with it. If the winters where not so cold there I would move to Canada. :D

[KCChief]

Just do what GunSmoke advised. Throw the letter away and count your losses. You do not have to pay a fine UNLESS you decide to fight it.

As far as the dealer "Should" give you another programmer...good luck. Someone I know wasn't that lucky!

Peace
KCC

Originally posted by KCChief
Just do what GunSmoke advised. Throw the letter away and count your losses. You do not have to pay a fine UNLESS you decide to fight it.

Not hardly if you're a U.S. resident, CaptMidnight. First of all a civil penalty is not a fine. A fine is a punitive award that is collected by a local, regional, or national court or other sanctioning body and forwarded to the appropriate agency's general fund. Its payment constitutes a presumption of guilt by the defendant. A civil penalty is also a punitive award, but that's where the similarity to a fine ends. Its recipient is the aggrieved party, which in this case is DirecTV. If DirecTV is granted a summary judgment of a penalty award, by no means a given, DirecTV may or may not push the issue further. If a demand for payment of an award is not satisfied, DirecTV could turn the matter over for collection, or, they can quietly file liens on property held by the defendant. The consequences could be severe if and when the defandant eventually wishes to sell or trade real estate or other personal property, or in the event of a death and transfer of property and/or cash to heirs. (Further penalties and interest for non-payment could be significant.) The defendant's wages could even be attached. Many employers, faced with the paperwork that would entail, prefer to terminate the employee. Are any or all these scenarios likely? Probably not. But it would not be wise to ignore out of hand any writs of judgment you receive. If you do get something in the mail, it's lawyer consultation time to protect your assets, or your ass could be set up for a lot of grief. Note, I am not a lawyer, nor do I presume to offer legal advice. My comments are only to be construed for their entertainment value, if any.

[TestCardStore]

Gunsmoke, not that you are wrong, but its fact that its the old guilty until proven innocent rap. If I was a manufacturer making crack pipes, and even had a image on them of a big rock beeing burned, I am sure they would go through no problem even though everyone knows you will not see professors smoking pipe tobacco in them. I think it is more a case of harassment and the fact no-one challenges them they keep doing it at Daves behest. I have had BARE bootloader pcbs seized going down there. I have had values stated up to 250$us 'estimated value' on them which is a joke. They are referred to as 'DSS access cards' in the letter..etc..etc.. a JOKE! Not to mention the fact that these, and the above original post of a programmer are made and sold freely in the US. (Even though we can suspect its final use, they still can be used on any 7816 smartcard out there for security apps or other.) This makes seizure of these goods a violation of NAFTA at the least. I work for the justice department in canada and I for one will be taking them to task on this and challenging them, and think all canadian dealers should do so also if not just to get their goods back and get them to the people that ordered. I don't blame US residents for staying out.

[KCChief]

Seymore_teevee,

Sorry my friend, but there is a little too much legaleeze and not enough fact in your post.

First of all, the letter the is received is a "form letter" telling you of the seizure and giving you options. The letter is stating that they believe that you may have been the recepient of "illegal" articles that have been imported to the US. There is nothing in the letter accusatory at all. DAVES name isn't mentioned in the letter at all (other than type of equipment seized), so there is no "aggreived party", other than the United States government. You can choose to appear befor the US district court (this is the part where they want a "bounty" for the goods)and explain what you are importing the items for, and if legitamate, you may walk away with your merchandise. You can also choose to do nothing and in few weeks, they offer your merchandise at a public auction (go figure).

I truly believe that it is all about import tax and they just want a little $$ (or a lot).

Bottom line, if you have the money and the cojones to fight it, it is up to you. If not, let it go!!

The letter can scare the hell out of you (as it did my friend), but it is nothing.

Peace
KCC

[gunsmoke2]

The letter is just a standard form letter that not needs to be blown out of portion. Its from US Customs letting you know you can contest or it will be forfeitured. The same letter for years and you just chose not to contest it and its gone.. its as simple as that.


debauche,


What do you think we have been doing since 1996 ? it has been taken to so many courts.. have you not read any decisions ? also many have already filed lawsuits against the Solicitoer General of Canada..

This is what section 10 of the Radio Communication Act says and the US counterpart more or less says the same.. Actually its worse..


s. 10. (1) Every person who …



(b) without lawful excuse, manufactures, imports, distributes, leases, offers for sale, sells, installs, modifies, operates or possesses any equipment or device, or any component thereof, under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that the equipment, device or component has been used, or is or was intended to be used, for the purpose of contravening section 9


*** you just have to possess any equipement or device or any component under circumstances that gives rise to a reasonable inference is or was intended to be used..etc.. just simple possesion that gives any reasonable inference that it is or was intended for contraveing the Act..

That includes programmers intended to contrave the act or in the US Telecommunication Act.. they simply will or can seize than charge you.. yes you are innocent until proven guilty but you can spend a fortune trying to become innocent that can take years.

Its been 30 months and over $100,000 in my case trying.. will cost me more and will go on likely other 6 months trying.. you can sugar coat it anyway you want but in real life this is what happens.

GS2

[rbryant3]

Well I have to agree with GS2 on this one, this is an administrative hearing and you stand little or no chance of winning without appealing the ruling to the United States court system. And believe me you will need a fat wallet and a good lawyer to ever get you stuff back. I would let it go.

On another note here is Customs explanation:

Why Seizures? U.S. Customs seizes merchandise that a traveler or importer attempts to import in violation of U.S. law on behalf of over 40 agencies of the United States Government. These include the Food & Drug Administration (FDA), the Departments of Commerce, State, Defense, and Treasury, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), and many others, for whom Customs acts as enforcement arm at the U.S. borders, ports of entry, and mail locations.

Some merchandise seized is prohibited (narcotics, hazardous materials), and some is merely restricted (subject to trade embargoes such as those against Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc.). Some merchandise is seized due to violation of entry requirements (failure to declare, false valuation to reduce duty, etc.). Some is seized to secure payment of a penalty.



What Happens Next? Due Process: All seizures, forfeitures, mitigation, and property dispositions are strictly governed by laws designed to afford the greatest possible due process.

a. Seizure Notice: The importer is provided with a "Notice of Seizure," listing the items seized, the law(s) violated, the violator's options (rights and time to petition, elect judicial or administrative processing, etc.) and the Customs contact location and telephone number. The seizing officers also look for information on other possible claimants to the property. Customs sends identical seizures notices to all other known persons with a valid interest in the property, who have the same rights as the violator.


b. Adjudication: The Fines, Penalties & Forfeitures Officer (FPFO) for the Customs service port takes custody of the property, and assigns the case to a specialist. If the importer files a petition for administrative relief, the mitigating facts and circumstances the importer provides, together with the report and findings of the seizing and investigating officers, are evaluated and weighed by the specialist. The specialist makes a recommendation to: forfeit some or all of the property to the Government; remit (give back) some or all of the property to the violator or claimant; remit the property and issue a penalty; release the property for immediate re-exportation; or return some or all of the property upon payment of a sum of money based on the property's value in lieu of forfeiture. In this last type of resolution, the money paid is then forfeited to the Government.


c. Forfeiture Notice: Forfeiture proceedings are instituted when the violator/claimant fails to petition or comply with the FPFO decision within the specified time. Forfeiture proceedings consist of public announcement, or advertisement, of Customs intent to forfeit. This provides claimants with additional notice and time in which to make claims on the property. The form used depends on the value of the merchandise. Intent to forfeit low-value merchandise is posted in the Customhouse of the service port area controlling the seizure. Customs advertises forfeiture of higher-value merchandise in a newspaper of general circulation in the appropriate area on three successive occasions, 7 days apart. A previously unknown claimant, or one with new facts, may seek to interrupt the forfeiture proceedings by contacting Customs. If the petition is accepted but fails again, Customs must reinstitute forfeiture proceedings (the advertisement process) from the beginning. On completion, title to the property is transferred to the government.


What Happens to Forfeited Property? Depending on the character of the forfeited property, it may be destroyed, shared with other government agencies, retained for Customs use, or sold at auction.


The disposition of seized counterfeit merchandise which has been forfeited is governed by 19 U.S.C. 1526. Pursuant to sections 1526(e) and 1526(e)(2), the Secretary of the Treasury shall notify the owner of the trademark and after forfeiture shall obliterate the trademark where feasible and dispose of the seized goods by either delivery to a government agency, donation to a charitable institution, sale at auction, or destruction.

_____________________

http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

[CaptMidnite]

Interesting points of views as well as facts stated here. I have to admire anyone who stands up & fights these cases. Since the dealer was nice enough to make make good on the seized programmer I see no need to fight as long as Customs or any other government agency decide not to as well. One things for sure this government can do just about do anything they want to do now & as more laws are past it will only get worse. Our freedoms & rights are slowly disappearing. How can this not make you angry.

[TestCardStore]

G.S.2
I'm not saying your wrong.. more so venting. If you look into NAFTA and check challenges, you can see how many times Canadian businesses, legal or grey are taking it from behind at the drop off a hate on unfair practices/protection. It just pisses me off the hypocritical stance that is played out at the border when these items are manufactured and sold freely down there and not a thought goes into how they themselves (us customs) are in rampant violation constantly thinking we are too small to put up a fight. I applaud you for what you are doing in court. Its for this reason I said dealers should stand up instead of thinking "oh well, I got my cash..send out a replacement and I am still up $$$". The more that do it the better chances there are of fighting in the future. I had my notices delivered to me in a manilla envelope with 11 at once. It says I have 30 days to appeal but the dates on them were from 2 weeks prior to that.. Its insuling at the least. I have been busy but tonight I will be putting together my defence and sending it in. At worst they ignore.

[gunsmoke2]

I understand and thats why I have been fighting a battle for 30 months now.

GS2

[RavinJoe]

I order a programer and had it seized as well. This is scary ----. I just started messing with this stuff and this came as a shock. I was suppose to receive my package today and when it did not arrive I tracked the FED EX number to find that there was no information since yesterday. I called FED EX to inquire on the status to find out the seizure status. They have not told me anything else since. It makes me wonder if they will investigate me further now.

Joe

Originally posted by RavinJoe
They have not told me anything else since. It makes me wonder if they will investigate me further now.

Good question, Joe. If you called from your home, or worse, work, there's at least the possibility if you used a toll-free number. FedEx would have the phone number regardless of call blocking, and, the authorities would be able to match it to an address easily. You'll get replies stating not to be concerned and just ignore the situation. They may be right. But if it were me, I'd consult with a lawyer to get a read on the liklihood of trouble and map out a defense strategy just in case. I am not a lawyer and my comments are presented here just for their entertainment value.
Several people have posted that FedEx is stopping these device shipments routinely. Several other people have also stated that if the suspect devices are shipped through the postal services from Canada to the U.S., there's been no problem. It mystifies me why some Canuck enterprises still slavishly go through a private courier with a known track record of interception. Are they buying the intercepted stuff back at auction and recycling them?

[gunsmoke2]

Its not only Fedex.. Purolator/airborne

They use it because they are newbies.. lasy..take chances.. don't listen to others who already had it happen.

Or all of the above

GS2

[godfather0819]

im useing my freinds comp i just read this so this isnt him but i really wanna comment on this

by what right does ups fedex customs claim seizure of ur electonic equipment i musta missed when the usa declared war on electronic equipment that may (possibly) be used to program a dtv card
i myself would call up the company fed ex or whoever and raise hell to get my package
id tell them "i want my package delivered not only wont i use ur service i will advertise against you to all the people i know and let them know what ur doing how is it the federal goverment doesnt seize this stuff but u do?"

telling us wont do diddly for u urself tell them at the very least complain

say they mark u as once receiveing electronics that (maybe) used for dss hacking that is what u are being told right

will they now seize any electronic property u get in the mail because it possibly could be modifyed for dss hacking

why not in fact they cant prove what u are useing it for

so if they can seize ur property without justification whats to stop them from seiseing anything of urs
you have'nt been previously convicted of any crimes involving dss hacking
if the goverment did this ur right to be protected from illegal search and seizure would have just been violated

since fedex ups is not the goverment i would say u have just been robed

pay the fine if u like but i would seriously call them and raise hell

[ed12]

this reply is to your friend
the point is :mute:
there doing it anyway,raise hell till the sun goes down.

the mandate is clear,any known canadian mfg. of
iso reader/writers shipping into the :usa:
must pass through coustoms..thats a period with
fedex/ups..etc
olny thing is and thank the stars above
is the :usa: postal system is not doing it..
nor the canadian postal services..
so as i said raise hell till it rains cats and dogs
but using a courier is like putting up a flag and
saying :hack: :centeral:
regards