http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010515/0453.html - 80 people names in lawsuit

[dssbytes]

Thought I would throw this out there
See if anyone knows anything more on exactly what this is about

[simple]

what does this mean for TTRK?


Simple.

[aikiman]

prolly nothing more than they got his customer list when they seized everything else...

[RiseStar]

Interesting to note that the judgement against the scullions went uncontested as he was in court here in canada at the time and could NOT attend the one in the US.

Mighty good timing to bring a US case to court don't ya think? Also, its speculated that DTV got access to the list thru illegal means, so when they go to court, they will likely have to prove where they got the list of his customers and if it was thru an illegal transaction by the RCMP, then it will likely be inadmissable in court.

[William37]

Whould it have been a smart move for the Scullions to show up in the US courts considering the smuggling allegation? Would they have not left themselves open to an arrest by custom's agents?

[RiseStar]

No, they were legally not able to leave canada at the time and dtv knew that.

[sirjohna]

Understand that once you are charged with a felony you are not permitted to leave the country. So if he was to leave CDN and show up in the US, all bail would be revoked in Canada.

Same rules apply in the US.

You actually have to get the courts permission to leave, without it you are screwed.

[H20]

this should be a good trial/case to learn from for all people. like the DeCss case is for 2600/linux community.

we'll learn no matter what the outcome.

[simple]

I personally think they want to go directly after TTRK as he is probably the most vocal on the subject of the laws and how they apply to this hobby. I think they figure if they can get him then the movement here in Canada may cease do to lack of funds or just plain old getting tired of the constant uphill battle..... well I obviously dont know the real reason they keep F*&king with him but it seems they plan on making an example of him no? hopefully this post can inspire some intellectual feedback that seems to be lacking as of late :) Looks like Mr.Angus is gonna be a busy man again :)


Simple.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Guys,

Let me explain this a bit. DTV ARE SUING 80 Americans for infringing their intellectual property yet they will try to use stolen property (my intellectual property) to do this. No I do not think so. It is a rule\ in both the USA and Canada then you cannot go to a court to ask it to grant you equity or justice with filthy hands. You cannot use stolen intellectual property to ask for justice stating that someone stole YOUR INTELLECTUAL property. THAT is vigilante law and is not the way the law works. I HAVE spoken to several of the defendants lawyers and this will be BIG issue in this case.

PS. This case does NOT NAME me as a defendant because they know I can present issues directly that will incriminate them.

But many of the defendants are aware of this too and they may well be charged with possessing stolen property, KNOWINGLY.

Furthermore this property came to them directly or indirectly from a COURT in Canada who may have let the RCMP take custody of it in a temporary basis while investigating the issue. They have strict custody rules and every person who is in charge of the exhibits at all times is available for discovery. And we will be discovering them all. DTV say they may come here to try to collect on the Washing State lawsuit but if they do we can readily prove it is full of falsehoods,lies and errors and can and will request that the Government of Canada declare that the case should be RE HELD HERE all over again. We did not attorn to their jurisdiction so the court there had no jurisdiction to deal with us. This gets us a kick at their can and they will be forced to admit EXACTLY WHO committed the crime of giving (selling) them the data and show that they are "receivers of stolen property also a serious crime here and there. And they will have to finger the person in the RCMP and that will cause a big backfire as this was done with the approval of higher ups. And no lowly member is going to take the rap as that RAP may be as much as 19 million dollars apart from the 30 or more million dollars of damages we suffered. The person who stole this property may be liable for the award against me which could not have been obtained without the stolen property. It DOES get interesting indeed.

Now for the American defendants, they will want to know that this database is totally inaccurate and does not reflect sales made, but proposed sales and much other info and that it has crashed may times and thus shows wrong prices and information almost exclusively. Some of it may have been valid on the day it was printed but it certainly is not accurate now. This Database DOES NOT show actual sales to anyone. Furthermore it does not contain shipping information (which they do not have) and anything other than an entry that is totally inaccurate and was NOT for accounting purposes. That was all done by a chartered accountant and that deals with money received, not money promised and in many cases never received and thus never completed. Most defendants will disavow the invoices as not an invoice to them and rightly so. Not ONE single defendant EVER got an invoice such as DTV have produced. And its interesting that the database is also a supplier database and some of those defendants NEVER purchased anything from Vcipher but rather repaired sub systems for us. That will be interesting in court.

Others are DTV dealers and several of those purchased only Virgin cards and several will be able to prove that the cards were subscribed. They could buy them from Vcipher cheaper than DTV chgarges them in small quantities :)

The whole database is filled with inaccuracies and it consists of the ONLY proof DTV have against these people assuming it is proof which it is not in MOST cases.

Its unfortunately a bother and an aggravation to the defendants however so certainly the fact that it is stolen property DTV have no right to (and they are stealing as much and mostly MORE than others) so I have no doubt the attorneys will be making this proof long before the actual case gets to court IF it ever does. This may just serve to show that DTV is willing to break other laws in order to prove their case. That is a no no in ANY court.

You try that folks, try BREAKING THE LAW to prove a case in court and see where that gets you.

One of my lawyers MAY EVEN ATTEND IN CALIFORNIA WITH AFFIDAVITS TO PROVE THAT THIS IS STOLEN PROPERTY AND WITH COURT TRANSCRIPTS SHOWING THAT THIS STOLEN PROPERTY WAS SOLD to them and thus amounts to their buying stolen property. It can be SEIZED for that crime and ruled of no use to the court. In that case what will their proof be assuming the judge does not throw the case out entirely. With NO PROOF they sure dont have much of a case.

You can be sure that I will cooperate in every way possible to make it KNOWN that my property was stolen and has found its way into their possession, both for this case and in the Washington case against me which I could NOT attend because I was undergoing court proceedings HERE.

Court proceedings that saw all the charges against me and my wife THROWN OUT OF COURT.

But I must say that I do feel very sorry for the defendants most of whom will have to pay lawyers bills at lease and that due to the ILLEGAL activities of DIRECTV who use STOLEN Intellectual property and have the unmitigated nerve to do that in a court of law. SHAME on you DTV :ttrk

See http://www.legal-rights.org/rvscullion.html

and its in French on top with an unofficial translation into ENGLISH at the bottom and its worth reading carefully.

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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
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[gunsmoke2]

Hi TTRK,

I am only asking a question :) the access cards in my machines belong to me right ? how is it that the RCMP send all cards to NDS to be analized for evidence used in Canadian courts.. my lawyers have always said that they are allowed to.

They also sent my customer records to DTV and Echo and again I was told by lawyers some the same as you have that it is allowed.

I believe you are right but then it confuses me on the other stuff

GS2

[Justin]

U.S. Breaking the law of another country nothing new..
http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks@toad.com/msg03407.html

...""The interest of the Cayman Islands in maintaining confidentiality of
records protected by the Cayman Confidential Relationship Law, while vital,
does not overcome the interests of the United States Government in
investigating violations of its criminal laws," wrote the judge."....

[To The Real King!!]

Hi GS2,

Material may be submitted to someone like NDS for "investigation of Evidence" possibly and the RCMP have done that in most cases in Canada. As to whether that was allowable is another matter, possibly depending on the finding of "guilt" or "innocence" and depending on if any damages occurred as a result of that. Submitting records once a person is found guilty still must get permission from the court but which permission is rarely withheld. But taking the property of a person such as myself, who was NOT found guilty but rather had all charges against him thrown out by the court is NOT permitted.

It is possible that this difference arises due to the differences in our status before the courts. While I sympathize with you and I strongly believe you will have your decision reversed on appeal, they lawyers may have said it was permitted in your case because you were found guilty. I am not sure about that but as I was found not guilty and the charges were thrown out of court, it is definitely NOT permitted to give my intellectual property to anyone. Even though it is seized it still remains my property. There is no difference with intellectual property and real property such as computers or the Satellite Systems they seized from you. I don't think they have the right to give those to NDS or DirecTV® either if you get my meaning. Neither in YOUR CASE or in MY CASE as I had some receivers seized too.

So I do not think that this takes on any different character than real property. If you were found NOT GUILTY (even at the appeal) then what justification is there for giving your property (or selling it ) to anyone?

So I believe that MY lawyer is correct on this.

What would you think if the crown wanted to destroy or give away or even sell your receivers before your appeal were heard. If you win you would fully expect to get it back and I suspect you would also have a problem if your customers were turned off as a result of your intellectual property being turned over to DTV.

Of course we know that DirecTV® wont turn off paying customers even when they are in Canada where they are not allowed to sell.

Even in the "money laundering" case that Justin mentions that may have been allowed by the court because there WAS a crime involved. Of course in my case there was no crime.

Evidence obtained improperly is OFTEN thrown out of court and is NOT used as evidence so for sure there are rules on this type of thing. I would think that evidence that is STOLEN would be a very satisfactory reason o have evidence thrown out when the person from whom that evidence was seized was found NOT to be guilty of any crime.

It may be a difficult thing to decide but I do not believe that stolen property (if it is KNOWN and proved to be stolen) would be allowed to be used in court any more than evidence obtained by a NON-AUTHORIZED wiretap would be allowed. To use witetap information the court must AUTHORIZE the wiretap and I believe that is the same here. The court would have had to authorize the transfer and failing that it becomes a THEFT of INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY and wont be allowed.


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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE AS I DID (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)<---CLICK here

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[gunsmoke2]

Hi TTRK,

They sent that stuff before there was any finding of guilt or inocence or any decision. They had no way of knowing back then who was going to be guilty or not. They sent copies of my hard drives from my computers probably more than a year before I got my decision.

GS2

[William37]

They do have the right in Canada to seize any informaion in an on going investigation but they must first document such items in the warrant you were served. If they then find you guilty they can return the Cards to NDS. Once they have them and you have appealled I don't know how much luck you will have in getting them back GS2. I am sure NDS will want to challenge it in court. I am sure they are trying the Who has deeper pockets game and alas I am sure they do.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi GS2,

I agree that they sent them there (cards) before any finding of guilt. And I suppose the RCMP will claim that NDS are the only ones with the expertise to test them (even though that is not really true) but HOW will the RCMP explain sending your hard disk to NDS? Do local universities not have even MORE expertise in that area? There was NOTHING to test or verify on my DATABASE and certainly no expertise that was in any way unique to NDS or DirecTV®. But it was in fact a question of giving my database to a direct competitor and /or someone who has no justifiable reason for having it if I am not GUILTY like the court has decided. And I suggest the same thing goes for you with your computer hard drive and your customer database.

Remember that there is a BIG even GIANT gap between what the RCMP DO and what they have the RIGHT to DO. And believe me that is something that is beginning to be KNOWN by the courts too. Their reputation these days is none too great.

As William 37 says, they have the right to SEIZE it but there are some very strict rules on what they may do with things seized (and good reasons for that) and if they cannot reasonably justify WHO they gave it to and WHY then it may well be able to be shown that this was in fact a "THEFT" and not a proper and necessary transfer. And WHAT about the fact that NDS and DirecTV® RETAINED it. It could NOT be GIVEN to them and they are supposed to GIVE it back, not RETAIN a copy. That is where the illegality comes in. It COULD NOT have been given to them as that is NOT allowed in LAW. We have experts here in Canada (at McGill or other universities for instance) that are FAR more qualified than NDS or DirecTV® when it comes to hard disks or databases, if there is a need. Both YOU and I and any COURT can readily see that there was NO REASON in ANY WAY to get DirecTV® or NDS to look at a database. Its not as if it was written in Chinese and they are the only translators known. It was in English and the RCMP could readily read it and present any evidence of it to the court which the court could clearly understand. So what was the justification. NONE at all. It is a different reason and one which I will SUE THEIR ASSES for and as DirecTV® have use this as evidence against me (not a valid reason for the RCMP to transfer anything nor an appropriate use of Evidence seized in Canada) there will be a price to pay now that I have been found not guilty and their raid was NEVER for a JUSTIFIABLE purpose.

This even MORE if the Warrants to seize are found to be illegal by the court, which I think they will be. I am FAR from finished taking this matter to CRIMINAL COURTS to protect my constitutional rights under MANY sections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

You have a GREAT case for that too seeing they NEVER did any investigation of you before they used the measure of "Last resort" in law, that of a seizure. They are ONLY supposed to seize when they have exhausted all other normal methods of investigation and CANNOT find evidence. In your case they did not try and in my case they already HAD all the evidence they needed to prosecute me in that they made a buy in Feb 1998 and again another in October. That means there was NO REASON to effect a seizure at all. Seizure is an ominous thing and should not be used trivially as they did.

But these are matters for other Criminal courts and for Civil Courts too but you can be SURE in my case that this will be followed up on in EVERY way possible. And they will NEVER succeed in keeping me from that by trying to beak me financially. Fortunately I have good friends that can spend a million dollars or more on it helping me if need be. But as you know I am fully capable of financing it myself and they are going to have to start giving me back money to do so after this appeal. There we WILL (for the first time) reveal some financial details that will force their hands.

And we will begin filing lawsuits very soon after the appeal and EVEN before a ruling comes down. They HAD their day and now it will become MY TURN and they will find out that there are consequences to THEIR actions. You see it did not turn out that I am this MASTER CRIMINAL they THOUGHT they had and tried to visualize to the public by their PRESS RELEASES at the time of the RAIDS. In fact quite the contrary, the Judge stated that it was quite legitimate to wonder WHY this prosecution was EVER undertaken. After 23 days or court hearings, quite a BIT became clear to the Judge and he mentioned the wasted effort, time and money in his ruling. It is posted at


http://www.legal-rights.org/rvscullion.html


for all to see both in French (official) and in English in a non official translation. As you KNOW the Judges comments wont do me ANY harm in Civil lawsuits and will probably be QUITE HELPFUL.http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif


http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif
Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE AS I DID (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)<---CLICK here

http://www.dsschat.com/index2.html

http://www.legal-rights.org

[gunsmoke2]

William,

Actually they can not send them back if found guilty as they are keep as evidence for appeals. If I had not appealed within the 30 days then at that point they could send them back.If they are caught without the evidence for appeal then are open for large lawsuit.

Even losing under section nine of the RCA means you contrevene the act but 490 applications have to be made on the equipement which is what McPuke tried.

Mr McPuke has already step in on behalf of NDS over the virgin cards still in their original boxes.. this is done for financial stress and for delay purposes.

GS2

PS YGM :)

[William37]

GS2 you have mail.

Guys I understand what you are saying but in my opinion you have forgotten one thing. If The RCMP decides to use their full organised crime mandate there is not a court in Canada that can over ride it. The only one that can is the Justice Minister believe me I have been down that road before on a different matter. I agree they should have not been able to send the hard drives out but they are allowed when it involves Organised crime as the RCMP have used this wording in the past. The courts do not run the RCMP the Government does and the Government will take Industry Canada's side all the time. The Hard drives were sent to NDS because common sense says since it may be software pertaining to their product they are best qualified to check. But I would not be surprised if they added a few things to it as NDS is not a law enforcement agency and they have the know how to add a few incriminating things. This would not be below them for sure and also impossible to prove they tampered. Industrial espionage is a dirty game and make no mistake this is how it is viewed.

TTRK the RCMP fears no one. Not the Courts and not the freedoms act either. They act on their own Mandates. I have talked to Jean Chretian around 8 years ago on this very matter of the RCMP and CSIS using their powers to invade the privacy of average Canadians right after my Brother was sent to jail for life and I was Jailed for refusing to answer their questions. I was released after the trial which took three months and convicted with obstructing Justice so I could not sue them for false arrest. I was not given the choice of pleading innocent. My meeting with Jean took place in a cafe when he was running for re-election and visiting Edmonton on his tour. He told me then and it applies now The RCMP answer to the Justice Minister and to the Head of the ruling Party and if they feel their actions are warranted then they will not be hindered in their investigation 's by the courts or by the people. With that he turned away and went on shaking hands and I was escorted out. People assume that innocence and guilt play a factor but they do not. In Canada you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent and even when you win you lose because in the eyes of the law you are still guilty and a record of your dealings are kept for future reference.

[William37]

Sorry let me clearify one thing I am in no way saying give up the fight just know your enemy. And this enemy will and can use every dirty trick in the book. Pick your battles before they do. So far they have picked the battles and have come out on the losing end but take a step back and make sure they are not stearing you in the direction they want you to go.

[ed12]

my name is now on the WIN list..
yes all stuff taken during the raid will
be returned..expect the nagra-vision cards
thats bell-canada's arm twisting..
we are off to a sec490 hearing for them,
futher we were awared ALL-COST'S
my 2%
regards