Legal question for the Mods

[dirk11]

What I want to know is even if a place gets raided by the Feds and they get their customer list, what can they do if you say that you got ripped off and you got an empty box or a product that didn't work? Can they charge you with attempted theft?

[Jeet]

Just having your name appear on a customer list is insufficient grounds to convict you (the purchaser) for anything.

Read all the laws out there, it is not a crime to have your name appear on a customer list.

What is illegal (in this case) would be to program Directv cards to be able to watch tv for free. Having smart card programmers is not illegal (I would go as far as saying unloopers are not illegal either). Sit back and just think about it, if smart card programmers are illegal well then what about the two most important parts on a smart card programmer - atmel chip and card socket - shouldn't those be illegal also??

See if you believe DTV logic then you can see how many items can be considered illegal in their eyes.

Going back to your question, DTV would have to prove that you had an item (and again card programmers are not illegal so that alone is not good enough). They would then have to prove that you were using it in an illegal fashion. Of course if you don't attend the court hearing then DTV gets a default judgement against you and they don't have to prove a thing.

[Justin]

If it get's that far they are not going to ask you for an excuse. If it get's that far you will charged and it's the judge you'll have to make your excuses to.

"Judge when i got home the baggie was empty, or it wasn't pot it was only oregeno"

After rereading if it's only a customer list, your OK. If it's shipping records of what you bought, different story. But then again you're already volunteering excuses, if they only have a customer list and you start making excuses you might be digging yourself a hole.

[Jeet]

How is this for a legal use for an unlooper.

The smart card belongs to you (don't even bother trying to say it does not because of what is written on the back). Basic law of contracts is that when you purchase a box you purchase everything in the box including the box itself.
Further various states have consumer legislation on the books that states if a part in a product is integral to the operation of that product then a manufacture can not maintain ownership of that product unless the ownership of the product was made explicitly clear to the consumer at the time of purchase. When was the last time that clerk at Radio Shack, Circuit City, Best Buy, Wal Mart or K-Mart told you that "You are buying everything in this box sir except the smart card that comes with it."?

So now going back to the argument, if the card belongs to you and it does not work, then don't you have every right possible to be able to fix it so that it will work according to factory specifications.

Does the term, intellectual property have any meaning in your lexicon? (Hint: the legal concept of such is accepted before the bar.) It can be argued ad nauseum who owns what and/or what's legal or illegal. Attorneys on both sides of the issue can offer up learned opinions. But, in the end, the only opinion that counts is the judge's.

[Justin]

..."ya judge I bought that $259 unlooper so I can repair that defective card in my $89 DTV system. DTV offered to swap it for $89 but that was too much money... LOL

[dirk11]

Well, if its that easy then I'll turn in everyone that I hate like my neighbor, exgirlfriend, etc. All I have to do is point a finger right? Then they are screwed and no judge will believe they didn't do it, cuz criminal defendents are always guilty ,what they say doesn't matter right. Is that what your saying? What ever happened to Innocent until proven guilty? I've been in court before on both sides and I'll tell you that if you deny everything they have nothing. No material evidence = NOTHING. Any Ahole can write my name on a piece of paper and that will not screw me. Guaranteed.

You can call me an idiot but I don't even get a lawyer, waste of time.

[davidnb]

Go see a lawyer, thats the best way to get proper advice to your question.

[ed12]

justin you are starting to sound
alot like some %%%% i know from mirc..
there asking q's..put foward
an answer that is not full of %% or dont answer..

what u ppl need to understand,
read the back of the card.it will state
this is the proptey {of} key word there.
also please note {copyright} thereof.
when you write the card to turn on the
the same said system ..free of charge..
you have vailied there copyright..simple sweet,
do i hear {copyright-infrigment} hell yes..
my 2%
regards

[Justin]

ed12,

I'll make it simpler use some common sennse.
DTV is not going to bust some people just because they are on some customer's list. If they file a lawsuit, show up at your door with a warrant it's because they have other things like shipping records and credit card receipts.

If it gets that far then some bull---- excuse like "the box was empty" ain't going to fly. A hobbyist that just wants to repair a defective card isn't going to spend 2x 3x 4x+ .... what the card costs to fix it. A bull---- excuse might get you off if it's only one card but not someone who has done 30 cards.

If it get's that far and you can't come up with a better explanation than what dirk11 gave as an example then it's best to heed the advice "you have the right to remain silent..." and get a lawyer.

[Jeet]

First of all the card is not the property of NDS no matter what it says on the back. When I purchased my satellite system I purchased everything inside the box including the box. If Circuit City never had the right to sell me the card then they misrepresented the product and boy oh boy do you smell a class action suit or what. So that arguement will not hold up in court.

Now this thing about copy right. Read what copy right law is about. I own Microsoft Windows on 400 floppies. I can erase the software on the disk and use the disk what ever way I want to. Those floppy disks are mine and I can do what ever I want to except make copies of the Microsoft programming on it. However I can destroy the Microsoft programming on them all I want to.

Next example, a book has got copy right protection. Again I can do what I want to the book but I can not make copies of it. I can rip out pages and I can draw mustaches on the illustrations, however I am still not breaking any copyright laws.

[whittles]

Jeet, if you saved an image file from the card, you have violated the copyright laws?

[ed12]

wake up
copy-right allows for olny {1} personal copy
note the word personal
this dose not how ever allow you to use the same said
copy-righted material for illegal use.
ie selling a copy to a friend,or giving a copy to a friend
that would mean if you have the oringal and a copy
thats your kick at it..no more copys are to be made.
thats a finite in the law
read up on copy-right you will c i'm very correct
i took a brifing on this after i was
chardged under sec 430 crimial code canada
the laywer shook his head and said you should be glad they did not go after copy-right,i went wtf are you talking about? and out came this 2hr talk.
go read about copy-right and its laws..
my 2%
regards

[capt721]

Actually... Doesn't an original work have to
have a 'Copyright' notice on it to be copyrighted???

I think you would be hard pressed to find that
on the card!!!

[gunsmoke2]

Maybe it would help to know that MrMcPuke who represents the Pukes and NDS recently withdrew his motion for property rights on access cards for his client NDS from one dealer in Ontario

He did this after the Ontario Court of Appeals Decision ruled so strongly that US DSS was LEGAL. I suspect he withdrew it because he chances were little to none of wining on LEGAL cards that belong to this Dealer. Since then the RCMP have returned a grand total of three cards to the rightful owner.. not NDS

GS2

[ed12]

turn the card over in dishnetworks case
trademark of echostar commuications crop
copyright |c|1996 echostar..etc
in nds's the same
they claim right to the {s/w} on the CARD.
get it into you thats as simple as it can get
now onto the return of cards
no brainer there when i bought the product i did not see or sign a wavier
saying the card was the proptey of such and such
and return was at there demand...this is to the all systems,puke did not do this at first either,
now they do..get that in you also.
the return of cards falls under possesion.
canadian law states clearly possesion is 99% of the law.
thats a period.
you can't state one fact and do another to suit your needs
this the law will tell you.
again
my 2% worth
regards