Legality of Unloopers

[GODCUNY]

In reading Risestar's comments on Programmers being Legal in the US, but Unloopers were not, and very much in a grey area, it got me thinking to possible origins of those determinations, and why Unloopers may have the ability to become either MORE grey, or even Legal now! Of course it depends on the firmware on the chip.

A decision on whether a device should be considered legal or illegal depends on what the device can be used for. A general ISO Programmer, which can be Legally used to program smart cards, smart cards which can be easily and legally purchased on the free market, has a legal and generally useful purpose. Especially since it does not violate anyone's freedom or property. If I was a video rental store, and wanted to use smart cards as a ID card for my customers to rent videos, etc - there is nothing wrong, illegal, or even unusual about it. Thus, a valid and legal reason to have the ISO programmer. It is not a concern that the SAME ISO programmer can be used to illegally program propriety smartcards, such as DTV Access Cards.

The reason why the Unlooper is a different case, is that this specific unit is ONLY geared to work with a DTV H Card, and has no use or usefullness for any other card. Unlike the ISO Programmer, which is general purpose, the Unlooper is highly specific, and specific to an area which is can only be used for illegal activity. This would leave a burden on the possessor of the unlooper to show that there was a bona fide LEGAL reason to have and use the unlooper.

However, now - what happens with the new Unlooper Flash that allows the Unlooper to also function as a ISO programmer. It can't be said that just because the unit could be used - with certain functions - to do possible illegal stuff that the unit has to be banned, the issue is that now it can be proven that the Unlooper (with this special flash) can do legal and proper things, and that alone legalizes it.


Now I am not a lawyer. But here is where the my logic comes from:

Many years ago, in the early to mid 1970's, there was a very famous copyright law case called the Sony Betamax Case. In this case, TV Stations and Movie Studios were suing Sony because of it's new "Betamax" VCR line. Prior to this release, Video Taping equipment was too expensive for the home, and definitely out of reach for the general home user. Now, the Betamax comes out, around $1300-$1500, and even though a little steep, it is now feasible for the home. With one extra feature - a builtin tuner, which allowed direct video taping from TV channels off the airwaves.

The arguments by the plaintiffs had to do with TV shows and Movies being copyrighted. Allowing these "Betamaxes" to easily be distributed through the market would easily produce mass piracy, as everything being recorded would be done so illegally (violation of copyright laws), and therefore, since everything on TV is copyrighted, there could be NO valid and legal use of the unit.

At least two rulings came out of this, the first being that through "fair use" provision of the copyright law, it was NOT a infringement for someone to tape a TV show, and watch it later. This right there provided some valid use for the Betamax.

The second ruling is the important one for us! The court can see it fit to ban a device, if the sole purpose(es) of the device would/could be used for illegal activity. However, the court could not BAN such a device if it also had legal and valid uses. It is then not up to the court to decide that a device should be banned solely on the basic that it COULD be used for illegal activity.


What is being said there ended up simple. Restriction or Banning a device is going to depend on whether the unit has legitimate uses. Then, at that point, the unit becomes illegal at the moment that the unit is being used for illegal activity.

If adding the flash to an unlooper to make it also programmer now provides legitmate uses of that unlooper, then calling the unlooper illegal is now either improper or we are in a greyer area than before.

[ed12]

good reply,but i do think you missed the point.
heres my take on iso/reader/writers/unloopers
all have a specific function.
all depends on the {software} loaded,
either it be through a specific chip or program.
my take on copy-write is easy maybe to simple but here i go
if i had a {dtv} card that was looped and i unlooped it
so it was back to factory spec. and i could now {sub}this same card, this cannot be illegal,
now if i took the same card and {loaded} s/w on it
so as to cause it to give me free-tv <dtv> then that
has to be a copy-write infrigment..
my 2%
regards

[Justin]

How about an analogy
IS0 7816 programmer = Your grandpa's tobacco pipe
Unlooper = Crack pipe

"yes officer i was really only smoking pipe tobacco in the crack pipe, honest!"

The way the law is written restoring the card back to stock while itself may not be illegal, it's primary use is in assisting you to be able to reprogram your card to get "freetv". Finding a legitimate use for an unlooper is not good enough.

[ELF-CO]

GODCUNY, I can relate to what you posted. And there are many ways to look upon these new devices as they crop up. Especially the new combo devices (programmer, unlooper, loader), and at what point they would be determined as 'illegal', if a case were to come to court.

But the point mentioned by you: Unlooper is a different case, is that this specific unit is ONLY geared to work with a DTV H Card is technically incorrect. Assuming you are using "specific" software (both the software interface and the atmel software) that works in conjunction with DSS cards, then the unit would be considered illegal. (And I do not see any distinction between if someone is merely cleaning a card, repairing it, or programming it... as the ability to modify a card is the issue) However, one can certainly develop alternative software for other purposes. Those units ARE ISO 7816 compliant, and can be used for development in that manner, and still be considered "legal" in every respect. Of course, I would assume if a court case were to come up... the burdon of proof to legitimise that usage would have to be produced as well... but the possibility certainly exists. (This also assumes the owner was not caught red-handed using the device in a determined 'illegal' way)

There are many such determined 'illegal' devices for the general public that are legal under certain conditions. (I.E.: Lock picking devices & tools can be owned & used by a locksmith...) But a coat hanger would not be considered an illegal device, unless you were caught in the act using it as a jimmy. In the case with an unlooper or loader, it is simply more difficult to show a legitimate purpose for owning one... but it doesn't mean it can't be done. (Just don't get caught in the 'act')

Originally posted by Justin
How about an analogy
IS0 7816 programmer = Your grandpa's tobacco pipe
Unlooper = Crack pipe

Yeah, but what about Grandpa smoking crack cocaine in his old tobacco pipe? (Grandma says Gramps has been complaining less about his sciatica lately...)

[Justin]

seymour :)

When looking at the legality of an item the courts are more interested in the primary use of an item not whether there is a legal use for it.

DTV does not have the resources to track down people who only own 1 unlooper (unless they want to make an example out of you). Now if DTV has records of you buying 1 unlooper AND 50 virgin cards, different story.

[Justin]

.

[gunsmoke2]

I didn't see Risestar's comments on programmers but as far as I am concerned DSS programmers are very illegal in the US just as they would be for ExpressPuke in Canada. Simple possession is illegal. No matter how many times this comes up people will always justify it to suit their belief.

Possession of any devices.. hardware that can be used to contrave an act like the Radio Communication Act in Canada or the Telecommunicaton act or laws in the US is illegal.

GS2

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by Justin

DTV does not have the resources to track down people who only own 1 unlooper (unless they want to make an example out of you). Now if DTV has records of you buying 1 unlooper AND 50 virgin cards, different story. [/B]

I'll take a stab at this hypothetical... somewhat at least.

To the best of my knowledge... it is not against the law to purchase any quantity of wal-mart packages you so desire... nor is it illegal to purchase the cards themselves. (If I recall, plenty of people have been caught with several cards, and it was not an issue, so long as they had some sort of proof how they were obtained/purchased)

At any rate... for all purposes... when a virgin card from DTV is purchased, it is nothing more than a preview card. It serves no other function than to give the 'possible' subscriber the option to subscribe. It has no assigned value that I am aware of, other as than part of a package commonly sold. And the purchaser can do with it what they desire, as long as they do not attempt to descramble "ANY" service with them. (Including DTV's, and not excluding other services as well) Is this not correct, from a legal point of view?

So, from a hardware stand point, you merely have what amounts to an ISO testing device and several ISO cards that are able to receive previews of DTV. Had those same cards been from Europe instead, would there even be any issue at all?

Don't get me wrong, I understand your perspective... but without all the combinations of elements needed, the possible crime cannot even be commited. The hardware is merely one element. You still require the proper atmel software, the software interface to communicate with the atmel, etc. Hell, there are plenty of people on this forum that HAVE the correct elements and still have difficulty producing a valid functioning card. Catching someone in the act is a far better method than merely getting some tools of the trade.

It would certainly be interesting to see a demonstration held in a courtroom in front of a jury. (One I will not be "forced" to attend, that is ;)

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by gunsmoke2
I didn't see Risestar's comments on programmers but as far as I am concerned DSS programmers are very illegal in the US just as they would be for ExpressPuke in Canada. Simple possession is illegal. No matter how many times this comes up people will always justify it to suit their belief.

Possession of any devices.. hardware that can be used to contrave an act like the Radio Communication Act in Canada or the Telecommunicaton act or laws in the US is illegal.

GS2

You are certainly more versed about the law as I would be... since I am a relative newcomer in comparison. However, since the same said programmer used for DSS can be used for ExpressSue... I cannot understand how all these shops located within Canada are able to continue to sell them. If it were illegal... would they all not be equally guilty of the sale of merchandise to commit a crime with?

[ed12]

if you have a iso7816-compliant
programer it can be used for a far more many thing's then
illegal {uses}...ie securtiy reason's..
it all depened's on the {software} you are loading to the
{smart-card}..that said
an unlooper has a specific function unlooping/cleaning
ie virgining the card ie factory spec.again the s/w.
ie be it one part lets say dexters winexp or su2
and wildthing with there 2 part ie atmel chip and software what ever.
from the virgin state
is were the questions come to play
do you sub the card or do you hack the card
pl note sub/hack one way is fully legal
the other is not..
it dose not matter WHAT s/w you load on that card
if its not YOUR'S you are in copyright infrigment
simple sweet done deal
again just my 2%
regards

[gunsmoke2]

ELF-CO,

The programmers you see are design to work with US DSS which most courts have ruled its Legal in Canada.

ExpressPuke does not pursue their own piracy in Canada nor do the RCMP.. they rather spend their energy and power & money to kill their competition.. the US DSS market.. its not hard to understand their Pukefull manner and behavior.

GS2

[gunsmoke2]

Hi Geo ;)

"One element is the "use or intended use", if a defendant can show that the "use or intended use" is a legal, then primary use can be establised to favor him."


Yes the defendant can and perhaps that is not a point stressed enough.

After being a defendant for 30 months with over $100,000 of still seized inventory and after spending $100,000 to $150,000 then I can assure that anyone who becomes a "defendant" going up against a Major player or a Government in bed with the Major player will either go broke.. go insane.. lose their business... lose their marriage.. lose their friends or all of the above. While I will not debate the legality with you now :) as I am a bit tired perhaps some can read my above comments that come from a real "defendant".

GS2

[ed12]

good reply..puke is trying that..correct
they are now going after there own card..
couple of q's there
there {own} card ???
humm last time I LOOKED
nagra-vision OWNED IT ??
humm
go fig
again my
2% worth
regards

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Everyone,

I think everyone is missing the point here or at least brushing over it completely. In the USA an unlooper (in an absolute vacuum) is liable to possibly be legal. But combine that with the hacked DSS card in your receiver or with the stack of cards in your drawer and its likely to be very illegal.

What I mean by this is that nobody will arrest anyone out of the blue for no reason. They will do so because they got a list from a previous raid or because they tracked items through customs or by some OTHER association with DSS. This is what will likely lead to a guilty plea.

In almost all cases in the USA, this wont actually get to a court. The debate on whether its legal or not to possess will NEVER take place in a court of law.

Much more likely, due to the overall conditions of the charge being made are other factors involved (like that hacked card in your receiver).

So I think the debate on legal/illegal is one that does not matter. Its the WHOLE of the circumstances and the offer the prosecution makes that will be more relevant.

So in the end it WILL be illegal because the circumstances surrounding the raid or bust will make it so. Sunday school teachers mostly don't buy unloopers.

JMHO and NOT on the LAW but on the CIRCUMSTANCES.

I think the LEGALITY of the item itself is just a red herring and not worth much discussion in practical terms.


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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
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[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by gunsmoke2
ELF-CO,

The programmers you see are design to work with US DSS which most courts have ruled its Legal in Canada.

ExpressPuke does not pursue their own piracy in Canada nor do the RCMP.. they rather spend their energy and power & money to kill their competition.. the US DSS market.. its not hard to understand their Pukefull manner and behavior.

GS2


And from a business standpoint, that makes perfect sense. Why worry about whomever is smart (stupid) enough to hack our crappy service, which amounts to free advertisement (for the time being) of our crappy service. Instead, beat up all our competition... and once we are satisfied we have gone as far as we can go... we can always target our hackers, as the law is clearly on our side for that anyways. Certainly what I would do too!

But as far as the programmers & unloopers you mention above... they may have been specifically designed around the US DSS system... but they certainly can be used otherwise if someone so desired. (It merely requires a software change, which may not be easy for some, but certainly not impossible) A 'legit' use for most of these items can be fabricated if the need be. (I.E.: Court!) ISO compliance can be an important blessing in disguise...

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by To The Real King!!
[B]In almost all cases in the USA, this wont actually get to a court. The debate on whether its legal or not to possess will NEVER take place in a court of law.

Much more likely, due to the overall conditions of the charge being made are other factors involved (like that hacked card in your receiver).

So I think the debate on legal/illegal is one that does not matter. Its the WHOLE of the circumstances and the offer the prosecution makes that will be more relevant.

So in the end it WILL be illegal because the circumstances surrounding the raid or bust will make it so. Sunday school teachers mostly don't buy unloopers.

I can certainly agree on that! It will never get debated in the US anytime soon, as the other accompaning evidence will over shadow whatever debate could have taken place, had that not been the case. Would have been interesting though.

One question I do have however... what about all the recent suits by DTV on dealers in the US? (The 80 named) Maybe I do not know enough of the entire story... but from what I have heard... some claim to have only sold hardware. If that were the case... one has to wonder why DTV would go forward with the case. Or purhaps they are now confident that they will win such cases. (And if they do, would that not close up shop for all the US based dealers?) Can anyone enlighten me on this? (thanx, eh!)

[gunsmoke2]

"It merely requires a software change"


Its too late then once you have been nabbed with the programmer.. DSS hacking software on your computer.. a DSS system you owned.

Most decent and respected companies would deal with their own piracy crappy or not. ExpressPuke is a Patheic company and their practices will only come out sooner or later showing dirty hands.. this almost happen and still might with their tradein units that they shipped within Canada a forced shipping documents to show it went to the US.. They got caught with showing adult films that were never approved..

GS2

[NewGuy2000]

I really think the stupid part is that you dont hear anything about this on the news. we can not get this banned..

[To The Real King!!]

Hi ELF-CO,

Actually I know quite a bit about the 80 dealers and have a copy of the suit here beside me. I also know that most of those people were NOT guilty of anything at all and some of the named never actually BOUGHT anything. DirecTV® have a copy of a database that they obtained illegally and its a totally inaccurate database never intended for any accounting purpose. In fact if people called in and gave their info (or the info on someone else, perhaps a friend) they were entered in the database and if they NEVER sent the money, then NOTHING WAS COMPLETED in any way. Many of them KNOW this and KNOW that there was NO EVIDENCE of any shipping information and almost all the invoices are INACCURATE and it was ONLY good for the moment it was entered and then came back (recovered) totally inaccurately after a database crash.

Vcipher did NOT use it for anything other than casual notes and it was not and was never intended to be accurate once the valid invoices were printed. And it was NEVER used to send a SINGLE invoice to the customer EVER, so where did DirecTV® get it.

Illegally is how and the where will be revealed in due time. And if ANYBODY (and several have contacted me or had their lawyers contact me) DISAVOWS the invoice or explains to the judge that they NEVER saw the invoice OR the product and they sent it on to Costa Rica (or you fill in the country) because their friend asked them to and it took a US address to deliver to the CREDIT CARD CARDHOLDER (and it did) then they sent it on to their friend in Costa Rica or elsewhere then WHERE IS THE CRIME???? They don't even know WHAT IT IS!!!

A very large number of people WANTED TO order by credit card as protection against RIP-OFF or other problems and asked their friends to do this because the Credit Card company required delivery to the CC Holders address (and not Costa Rica, or wherever was their Vacation home) as did Vcipher who wanted to be SURE to get paid. So where THEN is the crime???

Where is the knowledge that this could have been a crime. The person who ordered the product KNEW it was for use in Costa Rica, Mexico or elsewhere, did NOT know it was illegal in the USA because they just telephoned and in any case it was NOT for use in the USA. They just forwarded the package unopened to the other country and in most cases did not even open it because it was well packed and ready to send on. And if they DID look at it that person did NOT see the web site where it was stated to be illegal for use in the USA so they did not know. So where is the ILLEGALITY in that? And THIS SCENARIO of wanting to use a CREDIT CARD was 100% of Vciphers business (for all intents and purposes).

A CRIME requires both MENS rea (guilty mind) and actus Rheus (guilty act) and not just one of those.

So DirecTV® will have a LARGE problem with this and in addition each lawyer will argue that the customer list was illegally obtained and was the PRODUCT of a THEFT (stolen property). You cannot go to a court with filthy hands and ask for equity. And they will have to PROVE WHERE they got this MISINFORMATION that is mostly inaccurate and often not a sale at all. SOME of them in two cases were SUPPLIERS of PROGRAMMER products, not customers.

And many of these items were VIRGIN CARDS not the slightest bit illegal at all. Perhaps those were forwarded to a friend in Mexico or wherever. No illegality there either.

So this suit makes a BIG NOISE but none of these people were seized, many of them do NOT live at the address indicated anymore and the WHOLE THING is a JOKE and a SHAM.

Oh and bye the way, I was the one RUNNING that company and named in the lawsuit. And today, I was again Acquitted on Appeal in Canada where it is NOT a crime at all. Do you think its a crime to sell to Americans who told us it was for use in their Vacation homes OUT OF COUNTRY and signed a FORM to that EFFECT. Simply RIDICULOUS and simply publicity used by DirecTV® to scare people. And I agree it does because it is a hassle to deal with and its expensive as well. So I feel bad for those defendants but short of making a DEAL that gets them off cheaply NOT ONE of them would EVER be found guilty if they fight the issue. While that decision is theirs and their lawyers, it is certainly true that the VAST MAJORITY of them are GUILTY OF NOTHING and that database or customer list, illegally stolen from my computers while in RCMP custody are the ONLY reason these folk are mentioned. And enough of them NOW KNOW what BS that illegal document is and that it does not of itself constitute proof of ANYTHING.

They gave it to and bought it for a friend who since moved away, they gave it to their mother in law who then sent it to uncle HARRY and/or many others. You would be surprised at all the scenarios we were told in a day. And due to Credit Cards (and the restrictions placed on them) the VAST MAJORITY (in fact ALL of them as far as I know) were 100% TRUE.

And did any of these people use it illegally in the USA. Well its possible but I doubt it seeing they signed a document saving Vcipher harmless and stating clearly that they acknowledged that there were CRIMINAL SANCTIONS for that and that this (use in the USA) was NOT their intention and that it was for use in LEGAL venues of which Americans own the majority of Vacation homes and condo type units (often strip type housing but nice ones)..

As a retailer we cannot take custody of the guys WIFE and hold her as security. By posting this Disclaimer message clearly all over the web site and on every page on the web site a Canadian Company using the WWW (World Wide Web) or the Internet has DONE his due diligence (if he disclaims and prohibits USE in the USA and NOT purchase by Americans for use elsewhere on his CLEAR DISCLAIMERS) and that is what OUR law clearly calls for.

So what is DTV's point other than to get some publicity and possibly scare a few people from the years 1996, 1997 and 1998 until the end of October (actually Nov 4th 1998) when Vcipher were RAIDED. They have NOTHING from the current owners of Vcipher which is owned by Avantec Bahamas, Ltd., where its 100% legal to use all these products. And 80% of the market are Americans who own HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Vacation homes in 50 countries that GET DirecTV®. USE there in the USA is clearly illegal but in my understanding it is NOT illegal for an American to use a card in Costa Rica or Bermuda etc. That's they ONLY way he can get TV from home. Can you imagine the American watching Cost Rican game shows. No, sorry, but he wants CNBC, CNN and his local news when he is away on Vacation. And good movies to view at night. He wants to follow his stocks and that was ALWAYS worth a premium price to HIM. How many of you have vacationed in Mexico or the Caribbean and spent LOTS of time looking for English newspapers or magazines. You have LOTS of time on Vacation to catch up on the news or your reading but Mexican mags don't cut it. Neither does their game shows on EVERY LOCAL channel, unfortunately.

Personally I don't think that supposed evidence will cut it in the USA and if they had any intention of sending a message to a Canadian Court for MY sake, that sure didn't work. Judges here RULE ON THE LAW and not on influence from a subsidiary of GM or any MEGAcompany. Today I was acquitted for the SECOND TIME when an appeal (Certiorari and Mandamus technically) of my ruling was AGAIN thrown out of court with the Judge telling the Crown that the prosecution should NOT have happened as it is clearly NOT against the law in Canada and the Crown and Government KNEW or OUGHT to have known that. And the FIRST acquittal is posted HERE:

http://www.legal-rights.org/rvscullion.html

in an official French version and an unofficial but accurate translation by me, and I speak French as well as I speak English.

So again the Crown look like http://www.legal-rights.org/images/tukas.gif

and DirecTV® wont look like that but they WILL LOOK LIKE CROOKS. And they will HAVE to answer as to WHERE and FROM WHOM they obtained the info presented. That could be quite difficult and there is no out for them. You see I will be commencing proceedings against the Government and the RCMP who had custody of MY property and they likely wont lie about how that transfer happened. No little cop is going to take that much heat when they are discovered and one or the other will have to say where they got it :)

You see the RCMP have custody books and every coming or going of evidence MUST be signed for as to when it LEFT the custody room and when it was returned. And I already have copies of those books which the CROWN is REQUIRED under the rules of disclosure to provide. And they ONLY have a few CD BURNERS so it will be quite OBVIOUS WHO had access. So we already KNOW how many COULD have done it or had the OPPORTUNITY to do it.

Often people do not realize what MUST come out in court if they have not been subject to intensive cross examination.

Hope this helps and that defendants who are in the action get the opportunity to read it and understand what happened. Perhaps those MEMBERS HERE who visit OTHER sites would keep a copy of the URL to this post and post it when people ask about it on OTHER SITES. It takes ONLY a moment to COPY and PASTE the URL into Notepad and then post it on another site when people ask. I WANT to help these folk by telling them the TRUTH of what did happen and you would be doing fellow satellite community members a BIG FAVOR by letting THEM see this post and enableing them to get in contact with ME. People DESERVE to know the truth about something as important as this when THEY are ACCUSED. Courts have disclosure rules but it is important to know WHAT TO ASK FOR and this will help them a lot in understanding what truly did happen. Most wont even remember the issue and deserve to know with his unexpected attack. I am SURE they would do the same for you. And MY E-mail address is posted clearly on the

http://www.legal-rights.org web site which I started and maintain to help others who are charged with any satellite crimehttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

.
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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!

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Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE AS I DID (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)<---CLICK here

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http://www.legal-rights.org[Edited by To The Real King!! on May 28th, 2001 at 09:28 PM]

[ELF-CO]

Hi yourself Mr. To The Real King!!

Wow! Whatta post! And I can bet you have (since your initial lawsuit) learned a great deal more about our Canadian legal system then you ever cared to! (Pathetic as it is!) And congrats (again) on the acquittal! Let us all hope you will not need to have another & another...!?

I, for one, am so embarrassed as to how uncaring and unforgiving our legal system has become. They don't even make a half-hearted attempt at masking the hidden agendas behind their frivolous lawsuits. And even after all the cases lost before them, they insist that the 'next one' will be the kicker that sends everyone packing. Whatta crock! When will this stop? When ExpressPuke owns DTV? (Like that'll ever happen!?)

But one really has to wonder why DTV decided almost out of the blue to do a number on the hardware dealers in the US. Why now? Why not 2-6 months ago, or a year or so ago, etc.? Why did it coincide with your Canadian appearance in court? Kinda strange. Obviously, some team of corporate lawyers decided the move... so they must have something planned that we have yet to hear about. (Even if it was for publicity, or just to slow down the sale of hardware for a short period) There certainly seems to be a motive... and maybe we just don't know it yet? (Hope it doesn't take a trail to find out either!) I have no doubt that this has shaken up a lot of sellers out there... and plenty of future purchasers will also be hesitant to make that purchase now, just because of the news they heard. Maybe that was the 'goal'? (And if so, certainly short-sighted)

[GODCUNY]

Well, it looks like I stirred things up just a little.

Here was where I was coming from. The statement was made, a blanket statement, that unloopers were illegal, and programmers were legal. Why? Because programmers are generic and can be used for any purpose, where unloopers were special purpose, and could ONLY be used for unlooping a DTV card.

The programmer is ISO compliant. The DTV cards are ISO compliant too. This means that the interface between the programmer and the chip. What lies in the chip may be quite different, but the interface into the chip is standardized. The code on the chips (firmware) for the ISO programmer are also standard, and who knows - winexplorer may be close to standardized as well. Probably the ONLY questionable and illegal code is the script.

On the other hand, the unlooper was a special purpose device, which exclusively was for handling DTV cards. Exclusive, no other reason or purpose, as Distributed. As distributed means as per the firmware/software on and off the unlooper device.

Although the programmer could be considered borderline, it has BOTH legal and illegal uses, and using the Betamax case, the fact that there are illegal uses does NOT automatically brand the device as being illegal if there ARE ALSO legal uses. Primary use may not be an object, as people are suggesting that you have to look at the primary use. Now it is possible that the court to weigh good vs. bad. For example, take lock picks. In the US they are illegal unless in the possession of a Licensed Locksmith. But wouldn't it be reasonable and a legal use to use lock picks to enter my house when I forgot my keys? At the same time, what prevents a crook from getting a locksmith license so that picks can be carried legally? In a case like this, there is more potential for harm, and thus is addressed by local and federal laws to control a specific item, in this case lockpicks. However, there is no specific law making ISO programmers illegal to own, sell, or possess. Yes, there may be statues that make it illegal to own, sell or possess ISO programmers for modifiying DTV access cards, but it lies here in purpose.

So, yes, being caught with an ISO programmer will depend on what it is being used for. Owning a crowbar is not illegal. I can use a crowbar for repairs around the house. But using the crowbar to break into someone's house - different story. So use, and intent is important.

Having the programmer, and a programmed access card in the receiver - very suspect. But what if I go buy 50-100 of those generic white cards, and thow it into the draw with the programmer? Still suspect, but maybe watered down?


So, my point was on the unlooper. Not the combo units, which BTW would be borderline based on my analysis, but just the old fashioned unloopers which we flash the new Amtel code to allow it to also function in Phoneix mode. Now this previously illegal device, that could be considered definitely illegal, is now turned into a programmer and made borderline illegal, because by flashing the device you now made the device capable of LEGAL uses.

Yes, it all depends on how you use it and what you use it for.

[ELF-CO]

GODCUNY, then we agree to disagree. ISO Compliance is merely framework, and that framework is present in both the programmer, unlooper, loader, IRD, reader, and card used for DTV. (as just an example)

And because of this (ISO compliance), that unlooper or loader as you used in your example CAN be used for something other than DTV. One merely has to make the software interface and code change to make it so. (To my knowledge, it has not been done... but doesn't mean it can't be.)

As you mentioned, the software used on such equipment (be it in any of the chipset used, such as the atmel, or placed on the card itself) sets it apart from legal to illegal depending on the code used, whom placed it, and for what purpose. But even then, in order to get a conviction, you would have to have more proof that the purchaser knew the device was illegal to own in the first place. (It is not as cut & dry legally speaking, as would be a hand grenade, plutonium, etc.)

But dealers can (and if I were one, I would) easily ship their product without any code present on the atmel, nor any software interface, script, etc. And simply provide an off-site download area to let the end-user download, to determine the purpose of their purchased equipment. (Since after all, not all the software is considered 'illegal' in all locations, and the end-users should have the freedom of choice to choose). That would eliminate the "as Distributed" problem you mentioned... and once that's done, what do you have? Just another ISO 7816 compliant device for multiple purpose, as determined by the end user.

Really doesn't matter at this time anyway, until such a case ever gets brought before a court of law. But the argument is certainly there.

[three tooth]

Is it illegal to own just the chip alone? Is it illegal to own a certian product minus the chip? in other words it wont work without it? If so then would it be illegal to sell them seperate? in a package deal but mailed seperatly?

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by three tooth
Is it illegal to own just the chip alone? Is it illegal to own a certian product minus the chip? in other words it wont work without it? If so then would it be illegal to sell them seperate? in a package deal but mailed seperatly?

If that chip can be determined to be used exclusively for the unauthorized decryption of sat signal, then yes, it would certainly be illegal to own such. (If you are located in that broadcaster's country)

But in shipping a unit with a blank chip, or even no chip makes it effectively "brain dead"... and just another ISO product, unless somebody can prove otherwise. (I don't think they can)

As far as it not working without it... it will work with whatever you decide to put on it. That was the point. You are not forced to use specific code. You could easily use your own, or download and use what you decide to use. Either way, it should take the pressure off the hardware sellers in regards to the sale of an item that might otherwise be considered illegal.

[gunsmoke2]

Its all illegal to possess and good luck trying to defend yourself. Please put over 100k away now and be prepared to have your life in ruins for quite sometime. Its too bad some have to learn the hardway but I certainly will not sugarcoat it and have people receive poor advice. You are innocent until proven guilty ? No... this is how it works your are guilty until you prove your innocent.. that's what really happens

GS2[Edited by gunsmoke2 on June 2nd, 2001 at 08:02 PM]

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by gunsmoke2
Its all illegal to possess and good luck trying to defend yourself. Please put over 100k away now and be prepared to have your life in ruins for quite sometime. Its too bad some have to learn the hardway but I certainly will not sugarcoat it and have people receive poor advice. You are innocent until proven guilty ? No... this is how it works your are guilty until you prove your innocent.. that's what really happens

If that truly were the case, then how can any dealer of such products justify their sale from a legal standpoint? (In Canada or the US, since the same hardware can be used for all systems using smartcard technology, and most/all Canadian dealers ship to the US anyway) Why would they not have been shut down ages ago for their sales? There seems to be no logic in allowing them to continue selling, if the products were considered illegal.

Forget about the end-user for a moment... we are talking dealer here. Needless to say, anyone setting up shop to sell questionable items that have yet to be determined (to my knowledge, unless there is a test case I am unaware of) in a court of law as legal or otherwise, should have $$ set aside for any litigation that may follow. It would be foolish otherwise.

But there has to be a line drawn somewhere (legally speaking) as to when something is considered illegal to possess. Until such time as it is determined in a court of law, we can only go by assumption.

[Justin]

You have to look at the wording of the law.
The problem is the word primarily
I don't care if there are legal uses for unloopers.
The way unloopers are sold they are targeted at the pirate community and are being sold to repair DSS cards.

If you really want to make unloopers legal they need to be developed to the point they can be sold and targeted towards the ISO7816 user in general not just the hackers.

[gunsmoke2]

"If that truly were the case, then how can any dealer of such products justify their sale from a legal standpoint? (In Canada or the US, since the same hardware can be used for all systems using smartcard technology, and most/all Canadian dealers ship to the US anyway) Why would they not have been shut down ages ago for their sales? There seems to be no logic in allowing them to continue selling, if the products were considered illegal."



I don't think ANY dealer will try to justify it on a LEGAL standpoint for a sale. Why do you think they have disclaimers for ? to try to shift the responsbility on the user not the seller. They don't have you in mind and will always argue that you broke the law. For every reseller they take down there will be 10 new ones. Did you ever look at the sellers of cable box descramblers ? and their disclaimers ?

GS2

[Justin]

Disclaimers don't stand up in court.

In some cases law enforcement will even cite the use of a disclaimer as showing that you knew that the product you are peddling is being sold for illegal purpose.

GS2's example of cable box descramblers is a very good example. A lot of cable boxe dealers are in prison right now even though they required you to sign a disclaimer before selling to you.

If you think a disclaimer is going to protect you, you have a lot to learn.

[Daveee]

I have to say first off. I've been reading all these cases that have been going through the courts and I cant believe the ---- you guys are going thur. UNREAL. After 2 and half days of reading all I can.. has left me wondering just what counrty Im living in. I thought I read everything about DSS till I noticed a forum at the bottem of DSSUG's forums list "LEGAL & FREEDOM ISSUES." I pasted this forum by for almost a year now. One day I thought I would see what was going on in there since nothing was really happening with BS, HUUnloopers and such. I heard of some guys like CAN AM SAT going to court when I lived in Maple Ridge but I pasted it off as being guys hacking EVu or *choice.. Wow what a shocker.. GS2, TTRK and others touched by the crowns. I ashamed of my government. We also live in a commi country. Sucks to be Canadian sometimes.

Now that I got that off my chest.. I work for a company were I use and co-operate with a few other guys a security system that control access to a plant. We use smart cards for a few things like timecards and security access control. As such we have smart card programmers onsite for new employees and for replacing bad or dead cards. The computers log all ins and outs, time logging and access control. We went to the smart cards because there was concern by the workers that there could be a loss of data on the servers that could end up costing them wages. It also had a side effect of knowning where all employess are in case we have to evacuate the plant.

We have a legal use for programmers.. as would other companies. To us we would also have a legal use for an unlooper to recover data from bad cards. Sure unloopers are geared for DSS systems would be a no no but I really cant see shipping/selling an unlooper with no software (ATMEL and Operating software) would be wrong or ever strip the unlooper parts from a HEX files and just leave the phoenix part. I have a Scorpion unlooper I currently use as a programmer. Would selling programmers and unloopers in phoenix only mode be wrong?? I cant see how. So what if my programmer has an ATMEL.. Im using it for programming smart cards. Instead of being a dealer in DSS hardware be a dealer in smart card solutions. Sell smartcards (white ones lol,) Industrial card reading products.. diffrent styles of programmers.. Its not like you never see something for sale from a company that does that same thing as the next model only it has slightly diffrent internals. I have a Next-Gen programmer whos internals look nothing like 95% of the programmers out there. Sure in a nutshell your not selling DSS hardware.. that just a side effect. And if your good and lucky you can nab companies who need smart cards like we need.. (2000 of them) Just like that crowbar, lock picks, a car.. once its outta the door you shouldn't be responcible for what the other guy does with it??? "guy buys car.. guy runs over and kills someone one block away" Cars have legal and illegal uses too. (Im sure in the future Canada will have laws that nail all small companys because of what a customer might do with a wrench, all to benifit Crappy Tire (Canadian Tire of some of you :)))

UTOPIA BY LAW.. One day.. I swear its going to happen.

[Justin]

Davvee the problem with the unloopers being sold is intended purpose.

If someone where to make a unlooper that could be used for the smartcard in general alot of the legal problems could be solved. The problem is today's unloopers only have one purpose DSS cards.

[KENNIE]

AS OF NOW, THE UNLOOPERS ARE JUST PLAIN NOT LEGAL. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ALL THINK, RIGHT... YOU CAN GO TO THE MALL AND PURCHASE A CRACK PIPE, OR A BONG BUT YOUR NOT GONNA DO DRUGS..RIGHT...SURE. THE FBI AND DIRECT TV ARE SAYING IT IS THE "INTENDED USE OF THE PRODUCT TO ALTER THE ACCESS CARD". THATS IT. SIMPLE AS THAT. BELIEVE ME I KNOW.

[Daveee]

It anit fighting over this too much.. what I really mean is if I "design" a programmer not an unlooper. This "programmer" has an atmel that is programmed to work as a interface to program the card.. Dont market it for anything else.. dont mention anything about reprogramming to be an unlooper.. State that it is upgradable in the future to "Program" any new card that should come out.. I dont see the problem..

Anyone else realize something else that might happen here.. Once expresspuke and nochoice get off there asses and start to hit guys hitting there cards.. Wont unloopers become illegal in Commi-Canada? Besides what I say above.. this might be a problem as Puke and Choice seem to go after you at all costs.. I see them draggin people in for having unloopers for DTV claiming they can work on there system. Although it WILL become legal in Canada to hack away at Dave I forsee this becoming a problem especially for the unloopers of the future. As unlooping cards like H, HU and Dish in the future will/should be similar and I have to believe in time that a simple change in on the AVR's will enable this.. would this pose a problem.

Now that I brought up dish.. the hardware is the same as BEV. As soon as the unlooper for dish gets into everyone home.. wont this cause a problem? Once were done with all this court ---- DTV and DISH will be open season here and as it been pointed out that hacking DTV isnt illegal in canada neither will dish. The tools wont be either as this is a required thing in hacking.. I see a problem coming.. REAL FAST.

[GhostDog]

GS2,

The reference to cable descramblers was a poor one... US federal law allows for the ownership of aftermarket cable equipment. You may be correct regarding DSS test equipment, but for cable boxes (provided the sale is out of state and not in California especially) the law is quite clear. I have provided a link for your reference.

The use of descramblers for the unauthorized reception of cable programming is against the law. However, cable consumers have the right, under US Federal Law, to own and operate their own equipment, including descramblers.


US Federal Law: The cable cunsumer has the right, under US Federal Law, to own their own equipment.
See FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/nrcb4009.txt.

In this text you will find that it says: "Cable operators may not prevent customers from using their own equipment if such equipment is technically compatible with the cable system."

dimedealer

[Edited by Dimedealer on June 18th, 2001 at 07:07 PM]

[gunsmoke2]

Dime,

I type in cable descramblers on search engine and took the first one on the list..here is their disclaimer:













Legal Information

Terms of Use and Declaration of Intent

DO NOT PURCHASE OR HOOK UP YOUR CABLE EQUIPMENT UNTIL YOU HAVE READ AND AGREED TO OUR TERMS OF USE. ALL SALES ARE CONTINGENT ON YOU READING AND AGREEING TO THESE TERMS. BY REMOVING THE SHRINK WRAP FROM THE EQUIPMENT, THE PURCHASER AGREES TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS BELOW.

I, the purchaser, understand that certain cable television equipment sold legally may nevertheless be used in an unauthorized manner to aid in the theft of cable television services. As an inducement to the dealer (cablebliss.com) to sell me cable equipment, I, HEREBY DECLARE, under penalties of perjury, that I understand that federal law and various state and local laws provide for substantial criminal and civil penalties for the theft of cable television services, and that all products that I purchase from the dealer, now and in the future, will not be used to intercept any cable television signal without proper authorization from my local cable company and payment of all lawful charges, and I will only use the equipment in accordance with all applicable federal, state and local laws. In the event that I am a dealer in cable television equipment, I will not advertise such products with the intent that any purchaser buy the equipment for the purpose of aiding in any theft of cable television services, nor will I sell or otherwise transfer any equipment I have purchased from the dealer to any third party who I know or may suspect will use any such cable equipment for the theft of cable television services. As an inducement to the dealer, I agree to indemnify the dealer (cablebliss.com) for any cost or expense which may incur as a result of my breach of the foregoing declaration.

cablebliss.com is selling you a cable box so that:

You may own your own equipment to reduce monthly rental fees, avoid possible fees from the cable company for missing boxes, or parts, and use the equipment as a second or third setting when you are already fully activated, and wish to view programs on more than one television, and/or re-sell the equipment in accordance to all State, Federal, and local laws. It is not the intent of cablebliss.com to defraud any cable company, and will not assist any individual in doing so. Receiving cable signals without proper payment is a crime. It is the customer's responsibility to notify their cable company of any equipment they may have, and must obtain permission to use such equipment. cablebliss.com assumes that the customer has obtained this permission prior to purchasing our products. cablebliss.com will not be held responsible for any damages physical or legally that may be incurred while using equipment purchased from cablebliss.com.

You must comply with all federal, state and local laws regarding private ownership of cable TV equipment. Title 47 of the United States Code 553 states that: "No person shall intercept or receive or assist in intercepting or receiving any communications service offered over a cable system, unless specifically authorized to do so by a cable operator or as may otherwise be specifically authorized by law."



**** It looks like they are shifting the responsibility to the customer..what am I missing here ?


GS2

[GhostDog]

GS2,

I think alot of the misunderstanding comes from the different laws on the state and federal levels. The Feds seem to be OK with consumers owning 3rd party boxes, the individual states are not. This is why most reputable cable box dealers will NOT sell within their home state. As long as you sell out of state, the state government of the state that you are selling to really has no jurisdiction. As it appears that there is no Federal law violation. However, take this with a grain of salt, as I am no lawyer and certainly no expert on US law by any stretch of the imagination. Here is a copy of California State law regarding the use of descramblers. If I was in California, I would not want to be selling boxes in California, no matter where the 'blame' is shifted (ie. consumer/dealer) :0


---------------------------

California State Law:
CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 593
Every person who unlawfully and maliciously takes down, removes, injures, interferes with, or obstructs any line erected or maintained by roper authority for the purpose of transmitting electricity for light, heat, or power, or any part thereof, or any insulator or crossarm, appurtenance or apparatus connected therewith, or severs or in any way interferes with any wire, cable, or current thereof, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 593d
(a) Every person who knowingly and willfully makes or maintains an unauthorized connection or connections, whether physically, electrically, or inductively, or purchases, possesses, attaches or maintains the attachment of any unauthorized device or devices to any cable, wire or other component of a franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system or to a television cable or set, or makes or maintains any modification or alteration to any device installed with the authorization of a franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system, for the purpose of intercepting or receiving any program or other service carried by a franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system which such person is not authorized by that cable television system to receive, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding 90 days, or both. For the purposes of this section, each such purchase, possession, connection or attachment shall constitute a separate violation of this section. (b) Every person who knowingly and willfully makes or maintains an unauthorized connection or connections with, whether physically, electrically or inductively, or attaches or maintains any attachment to, any cable, wire, or other component of a franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system, for the purpose of interfering with, altering or degrading any cable television service being transmitted to others, or for the purpose of transmitting or broadcasting any program or other service not intended to be transmitted or broadcast by the franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by imprisonment in the county jail or both. For the purposes of this section, each such transmission or broadcast shall constitute a separate violation of this section. (c) Every person who, without the express authorization of a franchised or other duly licensed cable television system, knowingly and willfully manufactures, imports into this state, distributes, sells, offers to sell, possesses for sale, or advertises for sale any device, or any plan or kit for a device or for a printed circuit, designed in whole or in part to decode, descramble or otherwise make intelligible any encoded, scrambled or other nonstandard signal carried by that cable television system, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail, or both. For the purpose of this subdivision, "encoded, scrambled or other nonstandard signal" shall include, without limitation, any type of signal or transmission that is not intended to produce an intelligible program or service without the aid of a decoder, descrambler, filter, trap or some similar device. A second or subsequent conviction is punishable by a fine not exceeding twenty thousand dollars ($20,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for up to one year, or both. (d) Any person who violates this section shall be liable to the franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system for the greater of the following amounts: (1) Five thousand dollars ($5,000). (2) Three times the amount of actual damages, if any, sustained by the plaintiff, plus reasonable attorney's fees. (e) Any franchised or otherwise duly licensed cable television system may, in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 525) of Title 7 of Part 2 of the Code of Civil Procedure, bring an action to enjoin and restrain any violation of this section, and may in the same action seek damages as provided in subdivision (d).

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 593e
(a) Every person who knowingly and willfully makes or maintains an unauthorized connection or connections, whether physically, electrically, or inductively, or purchases, possesses, attaches, causes to be attached, assists others in or maintains the attachment of any unauthorized device or devices to a television set or to other equipment designed to receive a television broadcast or transmission, or makes or maintains any modification or alteration to any device installed with the authorization of a subscription television system, for the purpose of intercepting, receiving, or using any program or other service carried by the subscription television system which the person is not authorized by that subscription television system to receive or use, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding 90 days, or both. For the purposes of this section, each such purchase, possession, connection, attachment or modification shall constitute a separate violation of this section. (b) Every person who, without the express authorization of a subscription television system, knowingly and willfully manufactures, imports into this state, assembles, distributes, sells, offers to sell, possesses, advertises for sale, or otherwise provides any device, any plan, or any kit for a device or for a printed circuit, designed in whole or in part to decode, descramble, intercept, or otherwise make intelligible any encoded, scrambled, or other nonstandard signal carried by that subscription television system, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail, or both. A second or subsequent conviction is punishable by a fine not exceeding twenty thousand dollars ($20,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for up to one year, or both. (c) Any person who violates the provisions of subdivision (a) shall be liable to the subscription television system for civil damages in the amount of the value of the connection and subscription fees service actually charged by the subscription television system for the period of unauthorized use according to proof. Any person who violates the provisions of subdivision (b) shall be liable to the subscription television system at the election of the subscription television system for either of the following amounts: (1) An award of statutory damages in an aggregate amount of not less that five hundred dollars ($500) or more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), as the court deems just, for each device, plan, or kit for a device, or for a printed circuit manufactured, imported, assembled, sold, offered for sale, possessed, advertised for sale, or otherwise provided in violation of subdivision (b), to be awarded instead of actual damages and profits. (2) Three times the amount of actual damages sustained by the plaintiff as a result of the violation or violations of this section and any revenues which have been obtained by the defendant as a result of the violation or violations, or an amount equal to three times the value of the services unlawfully obtained, or the sum of five hundred dollars ($500) for each unauthorized device manufactured, sold, used, or distributed, whichever is greater, and, when appropriate, punitive damages. For the purposes of this subdivision, revenues which have been obtained by the defendant as a result of a violation or violations of this section shall not be included in computing actual damages. In a case where the court finds that any activity set forth in subdivision (b) was committed knowingly and willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, the court in its discretion may increase the award of damages, whether actual or statutory, by an amount of not more than fifty thousand dollars ($50,000). It shall not constitute a use for "commercial advantage or private financial gain" for any person to receive a subscription television signal within a residential unit as defined herein. (d) In any civil action filed pursuant to this section, the court shall allow the recovery of full costs plus an award of reasonable attorney's fees to the prevailing party. (e) Any subscription television system may, in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 525) of Title 7 of Part 2 of the Code of Civil Procedure, bring an action to enjoin and restrain any violation of this section without having to make a showing of special or irreparable damage, and may in the same action seek damages as provided in subdivision (c). Upon the execution of a proper bond against damages for an injunction improvidently granted, a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction may be issued in any such action before a final determination on the merits. (f) It is not necessary that the plaintiff have incurred actual damages, or be threatened with incurring actual damages, as a prerequisite to bringing an action pursuant to this section. (g) For the purposes of this section, an encoded, scrambled, or other nonstandard signal shall include, without limitation, any type of distorted signal or transmission that is not intended to produce an intelligible program or service without the use of special devices or information provided by the sender for the receipt of such signal or transmission. (h) (1) For the purposes of this section, a "subscription television system" means a television system which sends an encoded, scrambled, or other nonstandard signal over the air which is not intended to be received in an intelligible form without special equipment provided by or authorized by the sender. (2) For purposes of this section, "residential unit" is defined as any single-family residence, mobilehome within a mobilehome park, condominium, unit or an apartment or multiple-housing unit leased or rented for residential purposes.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 593f
Every person who for profit knowingly and willfully manufactures, distributes, or sells any device or plan or kit for a device, or printed circuit containing circuitry for decoding or addressing with the purpose or intention of facilitating decoding or addressing of any over-the-air transmission by a Multi-point Distribution Service or Instructional Television Fixed Service made pursuant to authority granted by the Federal Communications Commission which is not authorized by the Multi-point Distribution Service or the Instructional Television Fixed Service is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500) or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding 90 days, or both

[gunsmoke2]

Sorry for going off topic everyone..here is the second disclaimer from rank number 2 on go to:


ITM # 1 source for Cable Descramblers!

Lowest Prices! 24hr. Online ordering!

Online orders get Free Shipping !!





DISCLAIMER

READ THIS CONTRACT BEFORE ORDERING. BY ORDERING ANY OF OUR EQUIPMENT, THE PURCHASER AGREES TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS BELOW:

Sales of test chips & test boards:
These "test" devices are not sold with the intention that they be installed in equipment that is owned by a cable TV company, unless it is installed by the cable TV company or an authorized agent of the cable TV company. They are sold for educational or testing purposes only, and are only intended for use in equipment that is privately owned by the purchaser of the test device. Any use contrary is not authorized by the seller of the test device and voids all warranties.

Sales of descrambling devices:
Descrambling devices are not sold with the intention of defrauding any cable company of any legitimate fee which is due to them. Any descrambling devices purchased from us are to be used only with the written permission of the cable company. This can normally be done by paying the cable company for full service on all channels that the descrambling device will receive and descramble.

Ownership:
Ownership of any test or descrambling device does not give you the right to receive free cable signals. It is your responsibility to comply with cable company rules, and with all local, state, and federal laws.

Intent:
It is not our intention that any device sold by us be used in an illegal manner. Anyone implying theft of cable service will be denied all sales. It is your responsibility to to comply with all local, state, and federal laws, and to comply with all cable company rules and regulations.

Notification:

The seller is selling you a descrambler or a converter/descrambler, so you can:
1. Own your equipment to reduce or eliminate your monthly rental fees and possible equipment damage charges.
2. Take advantage of the latest technology in converters and enjoy extra features that enhance your viewing pleasure.
3. Use the equipment as a second or third setting when you are already fully activated and you wish to view programs on more than one TV.

All sales are made with the understanding that the customer shall maintain full basic and premium cable services. The law prohibits the reception of signal and the viewing of premium channels without proper payment. Since your cable company has no way of telling that you are using your own equipment, it is your responsibility to notify them of that.

Further more.....

Declaration of Intent

I, the purchaser, understand that certain cable television equipment sold legally may nevertheless be used in an unauthorized manner to aid in the theft of cable television services. As An inducement to the dealer to sell me cable equipment, I HEREBY DECLARE, under penalties of perjury, that I understand that federal laws and various state laws provide for substantial criminal and civil penalties for the theft of cable television services, and that all products I purchase from the dealer, now and in the future, will not be used to intercept any cable television signal without proper authorization from my local cable company and payment of all lawful charges, and I will only use the equipment in accordance with all applicable federal and state laws. I certify that I will not install any test aids in any cable company owned equipment or attach any test cube to any live cable system without obtaining proper authorization from local cable officials to do so. In the event that I am a dealer in cable television equipment, I will not advertise such product with the intent that any purchaser buy the equipment for the purpose of aiding in any theft of cable television services, nor will I sell or otherwise transfer any equipment I have purchased from the dealer to any third party who I may know or suspect will use any such cable equipment for the theft of cable television services. As a further inducement to the dealer, I agree to indemnify the dealer for any cost or expense which the dealer may incur as a result of my breach of the foregoing declaration. Additionally I, HEREBY DECLARE, under penalties of perjury, that any devices purchased from ITM Enterprises are not being purchased by state or federal authorities or any employees or agents of any cable company or its affiliates to be used as evidence to prosecute the seller in a court of law.

I acknowledge that it is the responsibility of all cable system subscribers to notify their cable provider prior to use of this equipment. The purchaser agrees to become liable for any cost or expenses incurred as a result of such illegal use including but not limited to reasonable attorney fees. By the purchase of this equipment, purchaser expressly agrees to abide by all applicable usage laws.

I hereby hold the seller harmless for any unauthorized use and/ or distribution of this equipment.

NOTE: All references to trademark names are for identification purposes only. We are not implying that all of these products are trademark equipment or that ITM Enterprises is an authorized equipment distributor. Some of the products contained in our catalog and or sold by ITM Enterprises have been modified from the original manufactured condition, to be compatible with systems using the manufactures equipment. References to manufactures model numbers or their trademark names are for identification purposes only and do not represent that ITM Enterprises is an authorized dealer or reseller of their product.

The purchaser must comply with all local, state, and federal regulations regarding ownership of cable T.V equipment. We will not knowingly sell cable equipment to persons who intend to illegally obtain cable programming. You are required by law to subscribe to all cable services you are receiving including basic, premium, and pay-per-view programming.



Email Questions To: itm@globalsource1.com .

ITM Enterprises - Copyright 1998,1999,2000,2001 -
Unauthorized duplication of any part of this web site is strictly prohibited without express written permission from ITM Enterprises. The following words, and / or names are used in this web site for identification purposes only. We (ITM Enterprises) are in no way affiliated with nor attempt to represent the following. Jerrold, General Instrument, Zenith, Pioneer, Scientific Atlanta, HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, Playboy, Pay Per View................



**** Back to Joe consumer ***


GS2

[GhostDog]

GS2,

With all due respect, i'm not sure what disclaimers have to do with your argument about the legality? I have posted links to'law' and specific state laws... these disclaimers can say anything they want, and do NOT always reflect the 'law'.


dimedealer

[gunsmoke2]

That's easy.. it goes to part of the discussions on this thread.. and here is how I responded to another poster on this thread:



"If that truly were the case, then how can any dealer of such products justify their sale from a legal standpoint? (In Canada or the US, since the same hardware can be used for all systems using smartcard technology, and most/all Canadian dealers ship to the US anyway) Why would they not have been shut down ages ago for their sales? There seems to be no logic in allowing them to continue selling, if the products were considered illegal."



I don't think ANY dealer will try to justify it on a LEGAL standpoint for a sale. Why do you think they have disclaimers for ? to try to shift the responsbility on the user not the seller. They don't have you in mind and will always argue that you broke the law. For every reseller they take down there will be 10 new ones. Did you ever look at the sellers of cable box descramblers ? and their disclaimers ?

GS2



**** I think its quite important that end users understand disclaimers and what their purpose is and how it relates to Law.. might as well bring out the whole package.


GS2