I'm asking straight forward?

[dougbs]

I live in TX, and have ordered from VC about a year ago. I am not a dealer, just an end user. As are alot of my friends. Should I be boxing up my emulation system, and hiding it a few miles from my house. Everyone here is scared to death that the Fed's are about to knock at our door. I would appreciate an objective opinion.

[gunsmoke2]

If you are scared to death then throw it away forever.. and live in peace.


GS2

[chipdoo]

lol...
Good point Gunsmoke....
We all know the risks!!

[dougbs]

Does anyone that isn't a smartass have an opinion.

[jman123]

He wasn't a smart ass, he gave you good advise, there is a risk, if it makes you uncomfortable then don't steal TV. Anyone that tells you its ok and there is no risk, doesn't know what they are talking about.

[ccds]

GS2 is not a smart ass.............

He is a well respected, timeless hard worker for this hobby.
If all you can do is shoot arrows when he gives you a straight answer don't ask.
If your looking for someone to give you sympathy when your getting tv for free in the USA and everyone knows its not legal to hack it there..
do as GS2 said and you have nothing to fear.

have a great day
:)

[2612596]

There's an old saying that I think applies here, " If you
cann't do the time don't do the crime" that's about as plain as it can be said. Texas is in the USA, testing is ileagal in the USA. If you are scared, it must be for a reason. If your customers get busted, trust me I know from experiance. THEY ALL TELL I do not care who they are or how tough you think thet are. When it comes to you or them, you can bet it will be your A$$ in the sling.

[gunsmoke2]

Ok.. so you want a smart ass opinion then live scared to death that the feds will come knock on your door anyday and enjoy your emulator system in the meantime. You should probably put a disclaimer on it that you had no idea it was illegal.. remove all your finger prints.. wear a disguise like your just the janitor working there.. build an escape tunnel.. put up cameras outside your house to monitor the feds.. put a mat outside saying you are not welcome.. enter at your own risk.. build a bomb so you can explode the evidence.. have a helicopter on standby beside your escape tunnel..


ect.. ect.. ect.. :D :D :D


GS2

In my personal opinion, the Texas raids may herald a new level of vigilance on DirecTV's part with Federal cooperation. It's hard to know for sure at this point, but no one ever got in trouble for being too cautious. If there is indeed a change in DirecTV's mode of operation regarding signal integrity issues, and, if you're afraid of regional or Federal authorities showing up on your doorstep with a search warrant, it may be high time for you to consider abandoning your "hobby". It's really a question of how much can you chance losing: incarceration? financial ruin? personal embarrassment? family? your job? your marriage? None of this may transpire, but is it a chance you personally wish to take? I realize I haven't given you a pat answer. There isn't any. I have tried to impress upon you the necessity to balance the savings you enjoy from the "hobby" against negative personal possibilities if the unthinkable happens in what may be a time of uncertainty. Hint: the fact that you're obviously worried indicates you've already started thinking of the possibilities and you don't like the prospects. Like the man said, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

By the way, and I'm not trying to be smartass, the term, "objective opinion" is an oxymoron. An opinion is subjective by its very nature...[Edited by seymour_teevee on June 8th, 2001 at 08:07 PM]

[ed12]

pay for it.:)
my 2%
regards

[chipdoo]

Lololl Im still laughing at Gunsmoke's last post.... LMAO..

You have some imagination (Explode the evidence!! hhaha)!! lol
-Chip

[rbryant3]

Well looks to me like DTV is trying to make examples of dealers in the USA. And who knows what they consider a dealer? Under USA conspiracy law everyone from the manufacture to the dealer down to the user can be charged in the conspiracy and believe me the government loves to use this law to turn the users as wittiness against the dealer. I guess the question is will DTV start going after users? Probably, I would say some users may get busted over what is going on now. It never gets better it always get worse. My $0.02 worth.


http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

[H20]

i dunno bout you guys but i'm gonna go ask jeeves and see what he tells me.. will post results. ;)

[hayley3]

I didn't feel like it was a good answer either.
You come here and everybody helps you to get up and running, and when things get bad, they say "well what are you doing here in the first place". Before it was "join, join, join".
We didn't pay for anyone to hold our hands, I know, but...
I'm sure he/she felt like he would've gotten some support or more information from those who may have gone through this before.

Just an opinion from the other side of the fence, so to speak.

[Despe666]

If you want peace of mind, you can use the same "loophole" that makes american TV legal in Canada by testing non-american TV in the US... Most non-american providers don't seem to care too much about signal integrity and have yet to send a single ECM. Major drawback is you're stuck with censored ----ty programming. It's all a question of risk versus reward! ;)

[gunsmoke2]

I'm sure he/she felt like he would've gotten some support or more information from those who may have gone through this before.



I have gone through this before and in fact am still going throught it going on 32 months. You won't get better information than that. If you or anyone would like to sugarcoat your advice on an issue like this then please feel free to do so.

Thanks

GS2

[moon73]

If the Dealers knew there was a risk in being raided, why would they leave their customer databases so out in the open? Does anybody know if the databases were taken? Also there are so many customers, would it be cost effective for them to take each one to court?

They don't have to (nor could they realistically devote the resources) take all of the customers to court. But, they would have a database that would include what and how many articles were purchased by each customer. With that they could pick and choose whom to contact. A few high profile repeat customers (especially if they're caught in possession of alleged contraband) willing to turn state's evidence for no or reduced prosecution against a major dealer then makes the prosecution's case much easier.

[moon73]

THANK YOU for a clear and intelligent answer to a question I am sure is on a lot of folks minds today. I purchased 1 bootloader from Virgin a month ago and was getting caught up in the confusion.

[moon73]

I e-mailed a dealer to get their opinion on all of this and this is part of their reply:

We have deleted all customer record databases, sucks for us, but we do this each night. We have moved all our records to another facility and do so with each orders each day. We are legit, we must pay taxes, so I offer the safest I can come up with for you all, but NO private citizen is having their doors busted in. If they do, they are not telling you about that they were programming for the neighborhood and loose lips sink ships as they say.
NO JUDGE, will issue a warrant I am sure, for an private individual because DAVE says "We think they are stealing our tv".


-END QUOTE[Edited by moon73 on June 10th, 2001 at 10:11 AM]

[gunsmoke2]

What you are looking for is for someone to say what you would like to hear. After knowing about 20 to 30 raids mostly in Canada and some in the US there is no practical way of hiding your customer base. As long as one person knows then they will find the other location and you never know when you will be raided. Before you are raided there is usually a prior investigation that you are obviously not aware of. This dealer IMHO is not wise to communicate another location of his records and it only takes an email left to follow the trail. If he deletes his customer base everynight it only shows in court that he knew he was running an illegal business.

They do interview all employees if they want and can get a new search warrant in hours by fax. ( tele-warrant ) In my case they went to 20 different customers to gather evidence.. If you are concerned then dispose of it as that is the best intelligent answer. If you accept another one that says not to worry everything is ok how are you going to feel if something happens later on. ? They certainly can issue private warrants against indivuals at their residents.. I don't know how anyone could say otherwise other than its less likely to happen.

I certainly will not give such advice and the best advice if you are worried is to dispose of it.. if you are not worried then fine.

GS2
[Edited by gunsmoke2 on June 10th, 2001 at 05:10 PM]

[gunsmoke2]

Perhaps this thread will help show the reality of coming to a private home. Yes it was for selling cards but possession is illegal also. They are suppose to apply the law evenly and you have have an angry neighboor for example and they complain law enforcement can choose to get a warrant. Yes its less likely to happen.. remote even.. but please don't accept that it can't happen.


http://www.dsschat.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=74479


GS2

[moon73]

I don't think it is a case of asking the same question till you get the answer you want to hear. It is just getting as many informed opinions and facts possible so one can make his own choice. I tend to agree with the dealer as far as individual testers are concerned. The odds of anything happening are extremely remote. An individual tester being someone who is not hooking up the whole neighborhood or making a profit off of Dave's signal. Which ,I think, covers most of the folks that do this hobby.
I have worked in the cable tv business for over ten years now. I have never seen nor heard of any action ever being taken against someone for an illegal hookup. In fact people would call to turn in a neighbor, we would act concerned but never was anything done. It was not cost effective and we were so backed up on installs and service calls that the report was trashed. A truck roll for us usually averages around $75us an hour. If a tech came across an illegal hookup during an install or service call, he would just disco it and place a note on their front door with a number they could call to start service.
On the other hand, they would try and scare folks into signing up. Running ads on TV showing people being led off in handcuffs and a little girl asking, "Where's mommy and daddy going?" Answer being, "To jail sweetheart ,mommy and daddy were stealing cable tv." Once there was an article in the local paper, "Local Cable Company Steps Up Enforcement." Had a pic showing two cops, 2 guys in ties and a tech standing next to a service truck all looking very serious. I asked the tech later about it. He said after the reporter left the ties went back in the office, the cops went back on patrol and he went out and ran his install route.

Everybody has to make their own choice in this matter. I have a gratis digital cable account but still test because I enjoy it. By the way , I am certainly not the only guy at the cable company testing. [Edited by moon73 on June 10th, 2001 at 07:30 PM]

[gunsmoke2]

I am all for personal choices and everyone should make their own. My personal opinion or view is just that.

I do want to point out that DTV/NDS are the most aggressive company ever that I have witness in the Satellite Industry by far and yes Cable companies are not aggressive at all.

GS2

[moon73]

Good point GS2. It will be interesting to see how far they are willing to go with this. I am going to monitor Pirate Den closely for any reports of actions taken against persons who were testing in the privacy of their own home, not buying any more devices other that what was needed, not reselling anything or hooking up anyone else. Good luck!!

Besides, if it were legal, it wouldn't be any fun being a 'Pirate'. [Edited by moon73 on June 10th, 2001 at 10:58 PM]

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Everyone,

I just want to add my 2¢ to the debate. Think of what has happened.

DirecTV® felt that Canada was a good place to start the prosecutions and that they could get many dealers and scare the DEVIL out of everyone.

Well that didn't happen. The law is clear in Canada and judges across the country have ruled that it is NOT unlawful for Canadians to receive foreign encrypted signals whether they pay for them or not. They HAVE to emanate from a "LAWFUL DISTRIBUTOR" in Canada for it to be illegal and DirecTV® are NOT a "lawful Distributor."

So DirecTV® FAILED in Canada. So NOW they are going to do the same thing but where they CANNOT FAIL. There is no ambiguity in US law as concerned DirecTV® just as there is not ambiguity in Canada as concerned Bell ExpressVu. Anyone DUMB enough to steal that signal (that I would not take if you gave it to me free) is a CRIMINAL and will suffer severe sanctions. I don't know about US law but in Canada the penalty under the CC can be up to 5 years in Jail. Now it is CLEARLY a matter of how hard the company who have a commercial interest PUSH the issue. And DirecTV® will PUSH VERY HARD.

So if you are in the USA and are stealing DirecTV®, be SURE that if they get a customer list from a dealer who was raided and that leads them to you, you will spend from $50,000 to $250,000.00 to defend yourself or you will plead guilty, rat someone ELSE out and possibly get off with a lighter touch.

But please get one thing CLEAR. They do NOT give a ---- if you are in a wheelchair, you wife just died of CANCER and you have 12 young children. If they can get you put away, they will. ALL they want is the publicity value of the conviction and the SADDER the STORY, the more effective it is as a deterrent.

If you are in the USA DO NOT steal a US signal. Its just not worth it at all.

And if a company YOU bought from just got raided, do NOT think oh hell, its not cost effective to come after ME, because that would be WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Take no chances and just give it up if anything happened. If you MUST watch TV till you drop and want all the channels you don't watch anyway, then move to Canada or the Bahamas or somewhere. But DO NOT risk your ass for lousy TV.

Sure they are scumbags, but they are DIRTY scumbags.

And probably most folks here don't really understand just how BAD it can be. It may seem trivial to YOU but it sure is NOT to http://www.legal-rights.org/images/dtvb.gifhttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif


http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif

Thanks & Good Luck,

<a href="mailto:ttrk@legal-rights.org"><font color="#FF0000" size="5"><strong><u>To </u></strong></font><font color="#FF4800" size="5"><strong><u>Th</u></strong></font><font color="#FF6200" size="5"><strong><u>e </u></strong></font><font color="#FF7002" size="5"><strong><u>RE</u></strong></font><font color="#FF9006" size="5"><strong><u>AL </u></strong></font><font color="#FFB508" size="5"><strong><u>Ki</u></strong></font><font color="#FFD014" size="5"><strong><u>ng!!</u></strong></font></a>

<font color="red"> Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!</font>

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif
Now open with lots of useful resources at your disposal AT:
http://www.legal-rights.org

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)

[bestbytest]

As I see it we are all taking something that don't belong
to us. That goe's for you north too. You have a system up there for you to pay for just like in the U.S. Call it a
hobby or testing or whatever but you are stealing just the same. As for the man with the question I feel the same as
you there are a lot of smart ass people and just because
you post a lot or help people you are no better then the
next person. I live in the U.S. but this is nolonger
the land of the free. If I own my system receiver,card,
and dish and dtv sends down a wave that hits my land and my
system then I should be able to do what I wish with it.
Just because you live north of a make believe line in GOD's
eye your in the same boat as me. So tell yourself your ok if it makes you feel better.
I for one took all my stuff and stored it for now and I'm
watching my sub and paying dtv every month as I have always done. Even when I'm testing. Also I don't sell cards to
make money and I think that is why dave is on our case.
When you have 500 cards out and you are charging just like
dave you need your ass busted.

[To The Real King!!]

Sorry Bestbytest,

The law does NOT agree with you. In Canada you are allowed to receive the DirecTV® signal which is PUBLIC DOMAIN. Nothing to do with what I think, just what the law says.

How would it be if Canada wanted to charge for water when our rivers flow into the USA. Its more like THAT than anything else.

Or what about your neighbor who waters her lawn and some falls on YOUR property. Can she charge you?

Or her Apple tree that has grown big and has branches over your yard. When those apples FALL can YOU eat them? Can she send YOU a bill? Are you STEALING if you keep them and make apple pies out of them?? They are her apples.

But she should keep them on HER side and so should DirecTV® with their signal.

You may well be able to get our signal or the Mexican signal too as neither is authorized to collect for those signals in the USA.

If the Government CHANGES the law and it does not affect my Charter rights, I will have to conform. But we are fighting here to be able to BUY the signal or have the FREEDOM to view what we want. Just ask GS2 who was convicted for selling DirecTV® in Canada.

If you give up your rights willingly go ahead. But WE WONT.

You obviously do not know what your talking about other than YOUR personal feelings. But that wont go far in Law, especially if you think bank robbery is OK.

This is about law and you can get the lowdown on that from the site at

http://www.legal-rights.org if you do care to know.

If this discussion is ever about what we FEEL rather than the law, I think the results would be quite a bit different.

I know lots of "good ol boys" in the south who would NOT steal the DirecTV® signal at all because its against the law BUT these same guys will tell you they personally feel that if they send it to my property they should be able to look at or monitor what is being sent. They have a hell of a good point too but they wont want to go to court because of their feelings.

Me, I think the Americans should keep their signal at HOME if they don't want us to view it. Anybody who sends me a US magazine sub and then expects me to pay for it can go jump in the lake. Not much different since I OWN my property :)


http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif
Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE AS I DID (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)<---CLICK here

http://www.dsschat.com/index2.html

http://www.legal-rights.org[Edited by To The Real King!! on June 20th, 2001 at 10:57 PM]

[moon73]

That's a real good question. Why does the signal cover Canada? Unless Dave is trying to cheat Expressvu by using the black market. I mean they sold x amount of H cards and had only so many subs and the same with boxes. Why else would they continue to use such a lousy security method? Is it to protect their large Canadian underground market? Seems they harrass Canadians who try and cut into their 'action'. They could basically stop that signal at the border and spot beam Alaska. This proves that something is going on. Follow the money. I think this makes Dave the biggest pirate of all.
To be honest, I would never sub. If they want to take the time, effort and money to send me to jail for watching TV, then more power to them.

[gunsmoke2]

Hi TTRK,

I think you would be the first to say I was wrongfully convicted for allowing people in Canada to subscribe to services by from either DTV or Echo. If you ask 10 lawyers the status of the Law in my Province they would all say its legal looking at the Superior Court rulings.


GS2[Edited by gunsmoke2 on June 21st, 2001 at 11:23 AM]