Please, I need your help.

[JPit]

I have been a member of this board for about two years. Last Nov. 2, my life was turned upside when my house was raided by the FBI. I had sold about 30 virgin H cards on ebay and apparently this was enough to get a search warrant. Two computers were seized and all my satellite equipment My lawyer is requesting me to supply any evidence to show that the sale of these unprogrammed cards was legal. Where can I find hard evidence to prove this?
Does anyone know of an expert who can testify in this type of case. Please provide any help here or email me at JPit@Prodigy.net. Thanks for any help offered.

[gunsmoke2]

Why is your lawyer asking for evidence to show that the virgin cards are legal ? are they suggesting that virgin cards are not legal ? or stolen ? or does the equipement seized show evidence or reason to believe the cards were going to be program to violate a US law ? did you have hacking software on your computer ? a programmer ? what are you charged with ?

GS2

[JPit]

The lawyer is trying to show that the cards could be used for something other than hacking. I haven't been charged yet but the investigative report recommends that felony charges be filed. They found programming software on my computer and a couple of cards for private use.

[ELF-CO]

Geez... sounds like a real mess you are in. If they found programming software that was actually used on your private cards... it would certainly lead me to believe they conclude you did this for the others as well. (Maybe I am wrong!?)

At any rate, as far as your sale is concerned... EBay is required (by law) to co-operate fully with investigative parties on both sides in the event of a dispute. You can certainly contact SDafe Harbour and inquire. (Safe Harbour is in daily contact with NDS... which would be the ones that took the necessary steps to get to you, as EBay could care less either way about what you sold)

I assume you kept the email records of the people you sold the cards to... correct? It would certainly help if they gave testimony to the fact that the cards were not altered. (They wern't, were they!?) Either way, it will not help the fact that you had altered cards in your possession.

You may or may not know this... but EBay does have a policy that they do not allow the sale of cards by themselves. (They go out of their way not to come out & say this, but I know it is true) So I can only assume you either sold something with the cards, or your auction went unnoticed by EBay until after the fact. EBay just passes on all such information to NDS, and await for them to say yea or nay on if an auction should continue.

I hope some of the above may be of some use to you!? (I am really too sleepy to know if anything I just said will help.) Good luck!

[gunsmoke2]

If your lawyer is trying to find another use for cards other than hacking then the cards could be used to get subscriptions from DTV if they are virgin.

What were the reasons given on the search warrant to begin with. They don't just come without reasons to conduct a search and seizure.

GS2

Originally posted by JPit
My lawyer is requesting me to supply any evidence to show that the sale of these unprogrammed cards was legal. Where can I find hard evidence to prove this?

Are you getting discounted legal fees for doing the critical background legal opinion search? Your real problem is getting past the fine print on the back of DirecTV access cards. You know, the part that says, "This card is the property of NDS Ltd. and must be returned upon request." Judges tend to take that wording at face value as an implied consent contract and binding upon users.

[gunsmoke2]

Actually the lawyer representing NDS in Canada has been withdrawing his motions on property rights on the cards.. but might be different in the US.

GS2

[zcubed]

Question:

If i buy 30 systems at walmart for $50, open each box to confirm the contents, never removing a thing from the boxes, and then turn around and sell those systems on ebay, all in one pop, or here, 3 at a time, or even in the newspaper, then what law have i broken? Is that not just free enterprise?

The conventional wisdom has been that if you sell "complete systems" (at least insofar as the receiver and its supplied card are concerned), you're Ok. Sale of cards, separately, especially in lots, is what may land you in trouble.

[18speed]

When you play with fire you get burned,why are you surprised they came after you,when you sell anything to do with hacking satellite tv in the usa it is a crime are you so naive to think that when you sell 30 virgin cards they are going to be used for legitimate purposes,well enough said i think you get the idea.

[zcubed]

Originally posted by seymour_teevee
The conventional wisdom has been that if you sell "complete systems" (at least insofar as the receiver and its supplied card are concerned), you're Ok. Sale of cards, separately, especially in lots, is what may land you in trouble.

Thanks for the reply, seymour. I don't really understand why "they" distinguish between cards with a receiver or cards alone. It seems to me that as long as a card is virgin then there is no harm in selling it, whether it's one, 30, or 30,000; however, i can see why it would pique their curiosity if someone is selling large lots. Most people don't have 30,000, much less, 30 tv's lying around.:D

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by zcubed
Question:

If i buy 30 systems at walmart for $50, open each box to confirm the contents, never removing a thing from the boxes, and then turn around and sell those systems on ebay, all in one pop, or here, 3 at a time, or even in the newspaper, then what law have i broken? Is that not just free enterprise?

You have not broken any law, and yes, it is free enterprise. But what you fail to realise in your method of sales is that NDS do whatever they can to protect #1 (themselves) and their dealers and suppliers. As far as they are concerned, they would be happy to end any and all private sales of their equipment, but they can't... so they do the next best thing. And that is to pay people to monitor & report such activity and sales, and do background research to further their investigations. (And they DO! Ask eBay about their Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program: Protecting Intellectual Property... of which NDS is a member of, btw.)

Believe me when I say that they act on any and ALL sales that are reported to them, or that they come across. And forums (such as EBay, a very public forum) co-operate 100% with them, giving them full access to their database of names, addresses, phone numbers, credit transactions, etc.

And in return, EBay will end any auction when requested to do so by NDS (without question)... because of three reasons.

[red]1) They are the "legal content" owner of the equipment. (Meaning that NDS has signed onto eBay's VeRO program, absolving eBay of any reprocussions when they act on NDS's "word".)

2) EBay wants to keep NDS happy, because in return, NDS helps to 'legitimise' their forum.

3) EBay wants to give the perception that they are looking out for their end-users welfare. (Even though they are clearly out to make money, and could care less about how they accomplish that)[/color]

Just remember one thing when making a purchase or selling on EBay or any other similar publically accessed forum... the information you provide them is supposedly "private"... but they certainly DO share it with the companies and law enforcement agencies that have legal access to it. (IE: NDS, FBI, CIA, credit bureaus, etc.) And they also monitor email as well.

[zcubed]

Thanks, ELF-CO.
After reading that, i agree: ebay sucks!!! I'm gonna look in to that VeRO thing. I want to find out what credit transactions they are reporting. It seems to me that that is a violation of the law right there. I wonder if VISA knows that ebay is releasing the credit transactions of their cardholders? I bet they wouldn't be too happy about it.

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by zcubed
Thanks, ELF-CO.
After reading that, i agree: ebay sucks!!! I'm gonna look in to that VeRO thing. I want to find out what credit transactions they are reporting. It seems to me that that is a violation of the law right there. I wonder if VISA knows that ebay is releasing the credit transactions of their cardholders? I bet they wouldn't be too happy about it.

Well... as far as credit reporting goes, you know that all agencies share their credit data to a certain extent, right!? If you had used paypal, and paid via VISA... both parties hold claim to all the info of the transaction. (Even though VISA ultimately exchanges the cash) And both can do credit transaction checking, since you granted them the ability to do so when you signed on. Same can be said for BilkPoint via eBay, or anyone of several such so called 'services'. And to get an account on eBay as a seller, you must also supply a valid credit card... and there by granting them access to do checking whenever they please. Trust me when I say that what they are doing is indeed, very much legal. They wouldn't risk their billion dollar biz to do otherwise.

If you are currently in litigation with one of their third party VeRO program members... they will probably direct you to their legal department. (And Safe Harbour) And I doubt you will get any decent answers from them without a letter from your lawyer. I could be wrong... but eBay tend to clam up pretty quick when questions like this get posed. They are a nervous bunch.

[zcubed]

Originally posted by ELF-CO
[QUOTE]If you are currently in litigation with one of their third party VeRO program members... they will probably direct you to their legal department. (And Safe Harbour) And I doubt you will get any decent answers from them without a letter from your lawyer. I could be wrong... but eBay tend to clam up pretty quick when questions like this get posed. They are a nervous bunch.

Thanks again. No, i'm not currently in litigation (knock on wood), but i was curious about selling cards and receivers on ebay. I think i will steer clear of them, even though the cards are with their intended receivers and have never left the box. Ebay isn't worth having your privacy invaded like that. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I will never support them, since they support what i consider invasion of privacy.

[ELF-CO]

Originally posted by zcubed
Thanks again. No, i'm not currently in litigation (knock on wood), but i was curious about selling cards and receivers on ebay. I think i will steer clear of them, even though the cards are with their intended receivers and have never left the box. Ebay isn't worth having your privacy invaded like that. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I will never support them, since they support what i consider invasion of privacy.

Anytime! Yea, eBay is 'okay' for some things... and not for others. Satellite related transactions on eBay should be avoided... it just isn't worth the headache.

Have fun!

[Jeet]

I am going to put some basic law 101 out for you.

The stuff written on the back of the card. Your honour at the time of purchase, I engaged into a contract to purchase the property rights to the merchandise that was contained in the box and including the box itself. Part of those property rights include me being able to sell the items piece by piece if I want to.

Find out if your state has any consumer legislation on the books. Many states have consumer legislation which states that if a part in a product is integeral to the operation of that product and the ownership of that part must be disclosed to the consumer at the time of sale. Again the classic arguement is that you must return your car engine to GM whenever they request it back, because at the time of purchase you purchased everything except for the engine.

Ebay only started pulling auctions for cards off in around April of last year. Before that you could sell all the cards you wanted too.

It is going to be up to the prosecution to prove that you programmed those cards (I am making the assumption that you did not but just sold them as virgin cards). It is not good enough to say that you had software on your computer that enabled you to program cards. I mean did they find a programmer or anything (again I am assuming they did not).

You might want to back everything up one step and argue that the search and seizure that was conducted of your house was unwarranted and therefore any evidence they gathered because of this illegal search be dismissed. This way you get around all the other issues. If they suspected you of wrong doing because you sold a lot of virgin cards on Ebay then set out your case that selling virgin cards on Ebay is not in violation of any State or Federal statutes. Namely go back to the arguement that you purchased this satellite receiver and you sell the items in the box individually.

Again I hope your lawyer has at least discussed some of this stuff with you. If he has not then I strongly suggest that you get another lawyer.

[To The Real King!!]

Hi JPit,

I am NOT going to agree with the majority of folks here and I agree with Jeet.

I do want to make clear however that it is a fine line and if they can put the sales together with anything at all that is illegal (such as using a card if you are in the USA) then you are cooked. You could be cooked if you have a programmer or if you have any of the freeware programs that can be used to program cards or anything at all in conjunction with the sale of virgin cards.

But if Virgin cards being sold on eBay is all they have, then I believe you are "home on a bicycle".

When you buy the system there is absolutely nothing to prohibit you from taking the system apart and selling those parts, ESPECIALLY if your motive is profit. That is done all the time. DirecTV® may not like it but they can go and screw themselves if they like because you have done nothing illegal.

And CARDS have a very clear usage for people and that is for SUBSCRIPTIONS. If the DOG ate the card, the kid lost it or if you bought a system in a flea market without a card, there are many reasons to buy one. As DirecTV® charge more than a receiver is worth, THEY made the market viable for cards alone and so the blame, if there needs to be blame assigned, is on THEM.

If your lawyer tells you otherwise and wants you to "cop a plea" then you KNOW that lawyer is a better negotiater than a lawyer as many of them are today. DUMP HIM FAST!!!!!! Any lawyer worth his salt will get the crown attorney to DROP such charges by explaining how they could not get a conviction and how your case does NOT meet the standard required under the law.

Most crowns have not been BRIBED by anyone yet and are usually reasonable enough when they do NOT have the goods on you. They wont BLUFF if you call their bluff.

But be HONEST with yourself and If they have programs and a programmer or other incriminating stuff (but NO PROOF that you programmed any cards, your OWN included) then you may want to settle for a plea if they offer a very small fine. That may be cheaper than the lawyer anyway.

That will depend on the VALUE you put on principle and if you will have a record or not. Some things are worth fighting for and In Canada anyway Mr. Jacques D'Argy and Mr. Levin fought their OWN cases in court and WON both in trial and now at appeal as well. If you are SMART and can talk reasonably well, you CAN win by fighting it yourself. Especially when a loss is not the worst thing in the world that could happen. And you may well save yourself 50 K or more and it is your RIGHT.

Gee Rise can you turn the color back on please as signatures look bad now and it takes little bandwidth. Besides the site goes like DYNAMITE now :)

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Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
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http://www.legal-rights.org[Edited by To The Real King!! on June 17th, 2001 at 02:12 AM]