Raid scenario

[techie]

Suppose you are in the US and you ordered an unlooper from one of the raided dealers.

Now suppose you get raided because your name was on the customer records database.

If they come in to your house and find several DSS receivers, with a dish connected to one. But they can find no access cards, no emu boards, no unloopers, no programmers, and no software whatsoever (because it simply is not present anywhere near your house). All they can find are web page links to the den and similar places in your browser's "favorites" listing. What can they do?

Will they still confiscate your DSS equipment and computer equipment? That would almost seem like a violation of rights if they did since there's no physical proof you have done anything wrong.

t

[Itchy]

I am not sure I understand, you admitted there is physical proof by having you name on a database list from a dealer who sold illegal products, would it be your contention that you did not purchase them? Either way they would need grounds for a search warrant and have it by virtue of your name being on the list. Whether they find the illegal products in your possession or not, you would probably spend some ungodly amount on legal fees, making whether or not you were in possession a moot point.

Just my opinion.

[2612596]

I would think no evidence no case, they're not going to charge you with comsperaicy to steal satilite singals. Hell, I've been in prision for comspearicy and it is one tough case to prove and the Justic Department is going to waste there time and money for DTV.

[rbryant3]

As long as you refused to answer any questions without a lawyer, you should be OK.

Remember you don't have to explain to the police why the IRD is there it is their job to prove that and anything you say can and will be used against you.

More than likely there will not be enough evidence to go to trial and the judge will drop it at your hearing if it goes that far.

Remember never try to explain anything to the police without first consulting an attorney and take him with you if you have to go to the station for questioning no matter what the cops tell you. Also it is a felony to provide false statments or obstruct a federal officer in an investigation 18 U.S.C. § 1001.

If you don't know what to do if confronted by police check out this link:

http://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal/bustcardtext.html


http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.[[Edited by rbryant3 on June 23rd, 2001 at 07:58 PM]

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Everyone,

rbryant3 is 100% correct. The first thing the Police will say to you is that "you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be used against you.

Now if anybody THINKS about that, they will EXERCISE THEIR RIGHT and REMAIN SILENT.

Unfortunately some 80% of defendants HARM their own cause by conversing with the police and trying to explain how what you were doing was legal.

Well I have news for you. If the Police went as far as to get a warrant against you, he is NOT going to buy anything you say!!! DO NOT TALK TO HIM FOR HE IS YOUR ENEMY NOW.

That may seem harsh to someone who has always supported he police but NOW IS NOT the time to support them.

He has been honest with you and told you that he is there to GET YOU (anything you say Can and WILL etc.) so do YOURSELF a favor and treat him as your enemy. Do not talk to him at ALL PERIOD. Don't be smart, don't be light, don't be funny and don't be anything. Some day in the future he is going to report your demeanor to the COURT and THAT is where things count, not when they come. Say nothing and comport yourself well.

Instead of repeating what you have said and out of context or convoluting your words, the police will have to say that you remained cool, calm and collected and did not talk or assist them (as they regard all TALK as assistance).

Many things can be EXPLAINED but do you know that the last thing your lawyer wants is to EXPLAIN anything. You have a LIMITED number of Explanations that a judge will hear and believe and you lawyer wants to save that for the REAL ONE EXPLANATION that he may have to give.

Most defendants hurt themselves BAD by blabbering and being friendly with the POLICE. DO not do that. He is a stranger, you don't give a ---- about being his friend and he wont BE your friend no matte what you say or think. He is hoping for a BIG conviction and maybe getting a promotion and a raise. That will ONLY happen if he convicts you BIGTIME.

By saying NOTHING you give yourself a BIG advantage when you get to court and get a piece of paper instead and RECORD everything that happened. When you get to court a Judge will BELIEVE MOST of what you recorded (he will ask hen you wrote that if you have notes) but will not necessarily believe what you commit to memory. The best answer of course is that you recorded it while it was happening. The Cops hate Video and they hate the next best thing which is you recording everything by your notes. But he cannot stop you in most circumstances where your hands remain free. And if he puts you in CUFFS because you were recording things, that will be excellent for you to tell the judge especially if you have collaboration of someone else who was present.

Having said this I am sure there are some who will not heed this advice if this unfortunate situation ever happend, but at least you have been told. And please read the LINK rbryant3 gave again ONCE MORE as it is GREAT advice.

And I have been through this system lately and STILL have a second Crown appeal to attend. You can believe that I followed this advice and I was surprised when some of the police were very truthful about this and some other things as well. They are NOT all Liars and some of them have good ethics providing you do the right thing. They are not in the courtroom when others testify and so some of them simply go by the TRUTH.

In one case we explained to the judge that the police ONLY attended at a bank to get my Money and NOT because they wanted to get evidence, In fact they had not seized some diskettes that WERE evidence and instead took ONLY the money. The chief Cop denied that and said no he wanted to get the EVIDENCE.

Well next to testify was a female RCMP officer who actually went to the bank with the warrant and SHE testified that she was there TO GET THE MONEY. She saw the diskettes but her superiors had made it clear to here that her JOB there was to GET THE MONEY.

This played RIGHT into our hands and our contention that these were PUNITIVE MEASURES and not part of an investigation :)

So you see, you never know when they will be truthful.
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif
Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE AS I DID (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)<---CLICK here

http://www.dsschat.com/index2.html

http://www.legal-rights.org

[techie]

BTW: That was just a possible scenario. It has not happened (that I know of). Anyone know of any end-users who *have not* dealt cards who have been investigated?

Originally posted by Itchy
I am not sure I understand, you admitted there is physical proof by having you name on a database list from a dealer who sold illegal products, would it be your contention that you did not purchase them? Either way they would need grounds for a search warrant and have it by virtue of your name being on the list. Whether they find the illegal products in your possession or not, you would probably spend some ungodly amount on legal fees, making whether or not you were in possession a moot point.

Just my opinion.

I don't feel that's physical proof. Doesn't credit card fraud happen everyday? Isn't it possible someone could've stolen my CC and personal info, used it to place an order and then snatched the goods from my front porch when delivered? Or maybe I ordered it for someone else because they didn't have access to a credit card and/or were a non-US resident. Or maybe I goofed and meant to order a power supply off their website, but pressed the wrong button. :)

Are we now considered guilty unless we prove innocence? Is a name on a customer list showing a possible purchase of a grey-area device enough to prove that a crime has been committed, even though no *true* evidence of a crime exists. (ie: Just because I have a gun, does that imply I've shot people?)

What a country... O.J. and the Ramseys can get away with murder, (with plenty of evidence against them). But order an electronic device and you are hosed.

TTRK. I haven't followed the Canadian cases. Do you think DTV is the one influencing the Canadian courts and police?

t

[dssware]

I dont think it would be enough to just have your name in the database, if so, then ad some good names like some hi ranking officials and maybe a few judges and cops, see where I am going with this. To me that is not enough proof to search your house. Just my 2 cents.

http://www.dssware.com

[rbryant3]

Well Dssware warrants do not need rock hard evidence to be issued just reasonable cause for the officer and judge to believe there is illegal activity or items there.The amount of evidence needed to get a warrant varies from judge to judge and the cops already know which judge is the easiest to get a warrant from.

If they could not get a warrant on the database alone all they would have to do is call DTV and see if you were a subscriber. Then call local law enforcement and have them to drive be a see if there was a DTV dish on your house. Go to a judge with what they have found and they would probably get a warrant.

I have seen warrants issued for drug searches on as little evidence as a lot of late night traffic and suspicious persons at a residence. Laws pertaining to warrants have changed a lot since the drug war has started it is a lot easier to get a warrant than you might think. Never under estimate a ruthless cop and what they will do to get a bust by the book or not.


http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.[Edited by rbryant3 on June 25th, 2001 at 07:47 PM]

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Guys,

You guys are unbelievable. All they need to do to get a warrant is sign that they have reason to believe that property used in a crime is located and can be found there. The list will get them a warrant NO PROBLEM. They dont say you are guilty of anything so whats the guilty crap? They come in, get your hacked DSS unit which you DO have and are being warned to get RID OF and you are dead.

If you wont take a warning hey, just discuss all the hypotheticals till they come and haul you away. Its no skin off my ass.


Me, I know how it works. Three years later, over $250,000.00 in legal fees and 2 acquittals and I still do not have some $10 million dollars in property, bonds and cash back. And now another "time delaying appeal"

They have ZERO hope of winning and the motive is simply delay till my 12500 -Cards are no good anymore. They are TRYING to break me but wont but it will take a while. If it happens you will understand how dumb the discussions look.

Enjoy your thoughts and scenarios.

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif
Thanks & Good Luck,

To The REAL King!!
-----------------------
Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth!

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE AS I DID (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)<---CLICK here

http://www.dsschat.com/index2.html

http://www.legal-rights.org

[rbryant3]

Originally posted by rbryant3
Well Dssware warrants do not need rock hard evidence to be issued just reasonable cause for the officer and judge to believe there is illegal activity or items there.The amount of evidence needed to get a warrant varies from judge to judge and the cops already know which judge is the easiest to get a warrant from.

If they could not get a warrant on the database alone all they would have to do is call DTV and see if you were a subscriber. Then call local law enforcement and have them to drive be a see if there was a DTV dish on your house. Go to a judge with what they have found and they would probably get a warrant.

I have seen warrants issued for drug searches on as little evidence as a lot of late night traffic and suspicious persons at a residence. Laws pertaining to warrants have changed a lot since the drug war has started it is a lot easier to get a warrant than you might think. Never under estimate a ruthless cop and what they will do to get a bust by the book or not.


http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.[/i]

Just to clear this up I am in total agreement with TTRK I believe they could get a warrant on the database also.

The above post was just an example of what they could do if they could not get a warrant on the database(which they could)didn't want to miss lead anyone.

http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.[Edited by rbryant3 on June 27th, 2001 at 01:01 PM]

[techie]

No arguing the ability to get a warrant. But what if
nothing is to be found except for a couple dishes and
unmodified receivers with *no cards*? All disconnected.
No illegal or gray-area items anywhere. As far as I
know, IRD's and dishes in and of themselves are not
illegal, subscribed or not. (As long as they are not
stolen of course).

Do they still have the right to sieze equipment? I am
guessing they do. But that seems awfully unfair given
the lack of any illegal items or actions found during
a search.

TTRK, The equipment is gone. Not on site. Nowhere to
be found. Computer disks are all cleaned and wiped.

t

[rbryant3]

Yes they will take them, along with your firearms and any large sums of money they can find.

They will call ATF about the firearms and IRS about the money. They will make sure they are all legal before you get them back.

As a warning to all firearms owners if you think you have even a remote chance of being served with a warrant check your firearms for compliance with federal law. And if you have assault weapons check them for correct fire control components especially AR-15’s.

I also have seen a lot of cases where people were searched for drugs and been busted for firearms.

They won’t only look for illegal sat equipment they will be looking for anything they can find.

http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.[Edited by rbryant3 on June 26th, 2001 at 08:11 PM]

[SittingBull]

People who have bought an unlooper etc is just a small fry. The gov is going for the dealers or people who sell the stuff (sigh).

It would be too expensive to pursue some shmuck getting free tv. they want the big fish

[zcubed]

Originally posted by SittingBull
People who have bought an unlooper etc is just a small fry. The gov is going for the dealers or people who sell the stuff (sigh).

It would be too expensive to pursue some shmuck getting free tv. they want the big fish

I don't completely agree with that. A local guy near me got busted, or at least raided. They took his loader, and i'm not sure what else. He was doing cards for friends and aquaintances only. He had no website, no phone number, no advertising. Everything had to be hand-delivered. No mail. He ordered a loader, and i'm assuming he was tracked through that transaction. I don't know if charges have been filed, but he was raided, and he was not a big-time dealer. Maybe not the smallest fish, but he was far from a big fish.[Edited by zcubed on June 27th, 2001 at 11:53 AM]

[rbryant3]

zcubed, you are right. What we consider a user they may consider a dealer. If you ever programmed cards for anyone but yourself you will be considered a dealer if they can prove it.

The more dealers they bust the higher the revenue they can recover in fines, civil, and judgments. The higher their budgets will go to investigate this type of crime and the more promotions they will get. Believe me if they can tag you will dealing they will.

Also if you are programming out of your house it could be seized along will the money, cars, guns, or what ever.

Take to Heart what TTRK is telling you about what they have done to him they will do it to you. The only difference is if you are in the USA you will never win.



http://www.nraila.org/images/fredom.jpg

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.