Civilized Debate

[Just The Facts]

Hello Yea711 please keep the comments on an Intellectual level. We all need to slow down a bit this is not Canada verses America it is us the little guy against the Big Corporations that look to end freedom of Information.

This is not about undermining anyone it is about sharing information and Ideas. It is about everyone understanding what the real issues are. It is about understanding the issues and the actions of those who have brought us to this state

People like seymour_teevee come here and misrepresent the TRUTH.

Seymour everyone knows our motivation what is yours or are you to afraid to come out into the light and answer for your false accusations against the Honourable Justices that have put their future promotions on the line by going against the Liberals wishes

So where do you work? Please fill us all in on your motivation for such a blatant mis-representation of the LAW and the Truth.

Yea711 You are right this has nothing to do with culture it has to do with protecting Monopolies. Canadian Content is just a clever slogan invented to hide the real goings on here.

And Yea711 you are wrong the King lost his head because he was denying peoples fundamental rights.

I venture to say TTRK would have been at the head of the revolution fight for everyone's rights while others just sat back and criticised those who fought for liberty.

The French Revolution was about overthrowing the old order and building a new one. Then it was the aristocrats that controlled the law no it is big Corporations who don't give two ----s about you or anyone else or their rights and the truth of the matter here is that if they could make millions of your death or mine we would be dead in a second if you think otherwise you are truly living in the Matrix.

Just The Facts
http://www.caffii.net

[RiseStar]

Yes, EVERYONE is reminded to keep all discussions civil, that means no name calling, bashing, insults etc or I have no choice but

To huff, and puff and blow the thread closed.


Thanks

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Everyone,

Yes BOTH the posts above are correct but I believe some have misunderstood something.

We are REALLY UNITED in this battle, both Canadians and the very many American Friends who support us and belong to our Satellite Community.

Often we talk about RIGHTS in Canada and the law in CANADA but that's NOT because we do not support our AMERICAN brothers. Its because THIS BATTLE is in the Canadian courts, this one is about US. There IS NO Fight in the USA yet, nobody is YET challenging the laws. But we would LOVE to see that happen.

When I first began this battle for our RIGHTS with a few others EVERYONE THOUGHT we were BLOODY CRAZY. Just ASK "just the facts". You could count the Canadians or Americans who OPENLY supported us (thinking we could NOT win) on ONE bloody hand. Go back and LOOK at 2 and 3 year old posts when everyone told us we were IDIOTS and that it was ILLEGAL to watch DirecTV® in Canada. It NEVER was and we BELIEVED strongly in that premise.

Had we faded from that fight it would all be OVER NOW. Do you folks understand that we have FOUGHT the ESTABLISHMENT, the GOVERNMENT, the RCMP and WE have WON. That was thought to be impossible a short time ago.

Now that we have WON some 20 cases in Canadian courts, many of those who thought us CRAZY have seen the LIGHT and now fight on our side as tremendous supporters.

We will WILLINGLY do the same and support our American brothers if someone THERE will just take up the fight in American Courts. The LAW is NOT crystal clear in the USA, in fact its as confusing as hell. But someone needs to start with a small target, especially if we can win up here. And from a small win in the US if its possible, that can grow into a full sized challenge of various laws there. NEVER say never guys but when our battle is OVER and if its WON, you too can take up the torch.

While we CANNOT be seen as in any way helping illegalities (or apparent ones) because that could be shown in a court and go against us, that DOES NOT MEAN that we wont assist in a court challenge to attempt to make a GREY LAW LEGAL. That is a fair and honorable fight.

We truly DO NOT KNOW if one is really warranted and that will NEVER be known unless someone whose rights are being taken THERE gets on side and FIGHTS THAT. But if you do I can assure you that lots of HELP will be forthcoming. Laws are OFTEN not BLACK or WHITE and contain LOTS of "GREY" areas. That is where a challenge needs to begin. Fight for an INCH and later go for a mile and BUILD on small successes leading to bigger ones. That's how BATTLES are WON. AND THAt is how we have operated and with FULL cooperation among all cases.

So when you see us saying that we are FIGHTING FOR Canadian rights and cannot agree with assisting in illegalities, that is CORRECT as we are law abiding people and thus the ONLY ONES who can possibly win a battle in court, but who says YOUR BATTLES cannot prove LEGAL in YOUR COUNTRY too and then we will be assisting RIGHTS everywhere.

We cannot assist crooks and crooks cannot win but you DO have the absolute RIGHT to challenge confusing law. And when and if that happens you will understand the need to be very legal in your statements and actions because to be seen as a lawbreaker you CANNOT possibly win. But we are NOT lawbreakers but it is FULLY legitimate to challenge LAWS that you believe are being misinterpreted. But it takes LEGAL-BEAGLES to determine that. NON-LAWBREAKER anyway. But we can SURE bust some misinterpreted laws and wont let them get away with anything. Here or There!!!

But to DO IT we all HAVE to come together for that to happenhttp://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif

Thanks & Good Luck,
[ttrkmailname]


[red]Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth![/color][/size]
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif
Now open with lots of useful resources at your disposal AT:
http://www.legal-rights.org

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)
[Edited by To The Real King!! on July 29th, 2001 at 12:09 AM]

[yeah711]

You sure said a mouthful but I'll stick with the subject at hand for now...First, Don't start throwing out accusations and inuendoes...My response to the real king was a reaction to what I percieved as a derrogatory remark to my thread regarding NAFTA...I thought I was asking a valid question...
Second, Your thread is less than kind but I'll for-go "reacting" this time as a positive gesture to keep this from
becoming a flame fest which happens entirely too often at this site...Now on to business...There are no fools here so lets not beat around the bush. The only reason that this site is above ground is because it is in Canada beyond the reach of Dave...Risestar has done a great job by being a visible presence in the fight for Canadians rights which will help all of us in the future.
Hack-Hu resides in the US and that is why he's going away. I have to admit that I admired the fact that he was "in" the war zone and was carrying on the fight well within the reach of DTV and lasted as long as he did...I would think that Canadian sites would highly encourage this because someday, inevitably, DTV will be in Canada and then the Pirates Den will be fighting for its mere existance just like Hack-Hu is now...
I belive we are all at the mercy of big business and communications is the next great battleground of the new millenium...I originally got in to this hobby because I firmly believe in the freedom of information and moreover, if big business and the entertainment industry wasn't so goddamn greedy, my satellite bill would be $5.00 US a month and this would not be neccessary...
I would love to stay on my soapbox for awhile but I type too slow and its late...

Strength and honor!!!
yeah711

[yeah711]

hey real king,
I apologize for lashing out at you...I tend to be defensive sometimes but I would like to extend the olive branch because we are all fighting for the same basic freedoms...
Something that would be insurmountable on an individual basis..So don't think for one minute that I don't share your beliefs...You know..."United we stand, divided we fall"

Goodnight...

[To The Real King!!]

Hi Yeah711,

No the PROBLEM you had is not listening to what is said. I clearly said that Canadian NAFTA negotiators got the better of American negotiators and BS'd them to get this EXCLUDED from NAFTA on the basis that broadcasting is cultural in nature. But that was just a BS story by our side and it was NOT for culture at all but to HELP their friends who paid off. We have some of the finest politicians money can buy and it was OUR Government who was crooked. Unfortunately YOUR negotiators signed the agreement that TODAY screws Dave.

But when we started it was SEEN AS ILLEGAL HERE by MOST FOLKS too because they did not BOTHER to STUDY the law just as YOU are doing now. How often have your READ the US titles pertaining to this.

And DEE ESS ESS also make the major mistake of NOT putting his MONEY where his mouth was. Instead of CHALLENGING the LAW in court and then mouthing off, he mouthed off and NEVER challenged the court and simply assisted with illegalities. The result is that he is no longer there, not too smart in my view.

You cannot POSSIBLY WIN if you do NOT challenge the law in a court and GET PROPER LEGAL RULINGS.

Standing around yelling when nothing is really happening wont help anyone. ONLY lawful people who take action in a legal way, act legally and properly in their business and do NOTHING unlawful can POSSIBLY win these affairs.

Acting like an illegal schmuck will get you no where. And please do NOT tell me I am wrong because I have PROVEN in the COURTS of LAW that I am right. But you can too, just not with a kid like DEE ESS ESS who blabbers and pockets the money and then QUITS because he has NO LEGAL standing.

If he had challenged the law in a court there, they could NOT bother him or attack him or raid him.

But he did NONE of that and therefore helped NOBODY.

All the good intentions in the world don't amount to a hill of beans if you approach a problem without a possible solution. Your law is as convoluted as hell and could CERTAINLY be challenged on a basis of misinterpretation and several constitutional problems.

Have you EVER read the US LAW and its multiplicity of confusing issues???

Start by reading HERE:

http://www.usfca.edu/its/copyright.html

Then read THIS which your Government is a signatory to:

http://www.pch.gc.ca/ddp-hrd/english/ccprmenu.htm

Then look at YOUR LAWS in about 20 different sections here under TILE 18 and 47 USC Sec 605 and then at Title 18 Sec 2511 and MANY sections following. You will see how conveluted it is starting at:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/index.html

and then search title 19 as well as 47 complete.

Its a LOT of WORK to actually accomplish something and no more than a tiny effort to mouth off :)

I will gBET that you that most have probably NOT EVEN READ the relavent sections never mind done anything and therefore cannot make a statement one way or the other. I have spent about 100 to 120 hours WEEKLY for about THREE YEARS now on the issues so it DID not come easily.

It takes a LOT OF WORK to change a INTERPRETATION of law, not just a bunch of guys blabbering off but really doing nothing.

DO SOMETHING TO CHALLENGE LEGALITIES and you would see ENORMOUS support from us but you have to actually DO SOMETHING, and STOP the just blabbing like DEE ESS ESS was unfortunately doing. It may well have helped peoples MIND but it did NOTHING for the LAW which is what is required in a lawful society like ours.

Get DOING guys, we will all assist you
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/ttrk.gif


But you have to do something LAWFULLY, not just for the feeling good part

http://www.legal-rights.org/images/niceday.gif

Thanks & Good Luck,
[ttrkmailname]


[red]Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth![/color][/size]
http://www.legal-rights.org/images/bllrbanner.gif
Now open with lots of useful resources at your disposal AT:
http://www.legal-rights.org

Please DONATE for the SUPREME COURT BATTLE (http://www.legal-rights.org/donation.html)[Edited by To The Real King!! on July 29th, 2001 at 12:48 AM]

[RiseStar]

I dis-agree with your "war-zone" analogy, as the war zone as you refer to it is a crime. When it really comes down to it, openly committing crime is not honorable at all. If he took steps to educate his audience that piracy in the USA was a crime and also took steps to eliminate posts on his site openly admitting to and encouraging other to commit illegal piracy, then it would have been a different story.

I personally warned him, many times of the dangers in not doing this, he ignored and dismissed it, citing it would result in an un-necessary reduction in his website traffic. (Un-necessary in the fact that he saw it as a crime that you had little chance of getting caught)

Here is one such conversation:

--------
Session Start: Thu May 24 20:38:58 2001
{Risestar} you there/
{DeeEssEss} depends
{Risestar} :)
{Risestar} how come no answer to my emails?
{DeeEssEss} too busy making a kickass site...
{DeeEssEss} ;) j/k
{DeeEssEss} usually when someone calls a bluff you are supposed to stay quiet
{DeeEssEss} haha
{Risestar} :)
{Risestar} Like I said I would really prefer to not involve myself in things like that...
{DeeEssEss} so to what occasion do i owe the honor of your presence?
{Risestar} I wish you would give more consideration on things before you post them though
{DeeEssEss} What I post is my business
{DeeEssEss} im hearing many reports that those civil dockets are doctored now
{DeeEssEss} (excuse the spelling)
{DeeEssEss} im no legal expert
{DeeEssEss} but ive gotten the same letters you have
{Risestar} doctored or not, they are in courrt
{DeeEssEss} and they quote the law
{DeeEssEss} and the law forbids devices which are used for hacking signals
{DeeEssEss} which programmers and unloopers do not do
{Risestar} the law to dtv is not always relevant
{DeeEssEss} hence they lose so often :)
{DeeEssEss} lol
{Risestar} only in canada
{Risestar} they seldom lose in USA
{DeeEssEss} if the dealers they go after..
{DeeEssEss} don't do illegal stuff on the side
{DeeEssEss} then they have no worries
{DeeEssEss} if they do: then they deserve to be bagged
{Risestar} not always
{DeeEssEss} sad part is....many dealers do do bad stuff on the side
{Risestar} yes, but my point is that people should be aware of the law
{DeeEssEss} it's their responsibility
{Risestar} you give people the wrong impression that its no big deal
{DeeEssEss} i choose not to center my site around the law
{DeeEssEss} im giving them my opinion
{DeeEssEss} which is what i am supposed to give on my website
{DeeEssEss} i represent noone but myself
{Risestar} you have nothing regarding the law
{Risestar} on yoru site
{DeeEssEss} exactly
{DeeEssEss} your point?
{Risestar} whats wrong, think it will be bad for business?
{DeeEssEss} i dont teach how to hack signals :)
{Risestar} gimme a break
{DeeEssEss} i provide news
{DeeEssEss} no files, no how-to's, no guides, etc.
{DeeEssEss} you used to say those were what kept me alive
{DeeEssEss} turns out people really did just like hearing my articles
{Risestar} you provide an unmoderation enviroment in which ppl can and do learn to steal signals
{Risestar} sure they did
{DeeEssEss} the earth is an unmoderation enviroment in which ppl can and do learn to steal signals
{DeeEssEss} air is an unmoderation enviroment in which ppl can and do learn to steal signals
{Risestar} never said that they didn't, but a lot came for the free files also
{DeeEssEss} my numbers have only increased.....even right through the site change
{DeeEssEss} literally 0% of people came soley for files
{Risestar} numbers, schmumbers
{DeeEssEss} no, numbers mean everything
{DeeEssEss} numbers make a site tick
{DeeEssEss} no numbers, no site
{Risestar} I would rather run a responsible site, then a reckless one even if it means its not the most popular
{DeeEssEss} congratulations
{DeeEssEss} who's stopping you?
{DeeEssEss} I never so much as mention your site any more
{Risestar} thats ok
{DeeEssEss} i never question your way of doing things
{DeeEssEss} i never even offer so much as an opinion on them
{DeeEssEss} because i realize that your site is just that....your site
{Risestar} granted
{DeeEssEss} i wish you would be professional and do the same
{Risestar} Then you should be more considerate in what you write
{DeeEssEss} you have no right telling me that
{DeeEssEss} i owe you nothing
{DeeEssEss} i own noone anything
{Risestar} first off, dont go shooting your mouth off to US rags pretending to be canadian, when you are not
{DeeEssEss} first off...
{DeeEssEss} i don't "shoot off" anything
{DeeEssEss} they ASSUME I am canadian
{DeeEssEss} officially, I am a ghost
{Risestar} you dont live here, you know nothing about our industry
{DeeEssEss} and second of all
{Risestar} or what we have ben fighting for or against
{DeeEssEss} personal information is a line i will never cross
{Risestar} personal info has nothing to do with it
{DeeEssEss} if you want to go that route (which i realize you have been trying to do, im not an idiot)
{DeeEssEss} then so be it
{Risestar} USA has 25 million ppl
{DeeEssEss} im not here to discuss nations
{Risestar} I am sure that if you say you are a us citizen, they are not going to track you down easily
{DeeEssEss} you are no fool
{DeeEssEss} you know damned well if they want to know who i am, they do
{DeeEssEss} it is not a hard thing to do
{Risestar} no, but I live here and am involved in the canadian industry
{Risestar} which is a lot different than yours
{DeeEssEss} don't assume too much
{DeeEssEss} you keep saying "here" and "yours"
{DeeEssEss} you know not where I live
{Risestar} you have not right blabbing off and hading behind a veil called canada
{DeeEssEss} may I ask you something?
{Risestar} sure
{DeeEssEss} where on my webpage does it say I come from any particular nation?
{Risestar} it doesnt
{Risestar} it used to
{DeeEssEss} ...?
{DeeEssEss} so your point
{DeeEssEss} you want to live in the past?
{Risestar} canada leader in digital information or somethign liek that'
{DeeEssEss} haha
{DeeEssEss} on the top bar
{DeeEssEss} it's called humor
{DeeEssEss} the site was a complete spoof of DTV
{Risestar} you imply your residence is canadian in the media
{DeeEssEss} America became Canada
{DeeEssEss} I do no such thing
{DeeEssEss} in fact
{Risestar} BS

--------


Information exchange is one thing, but encouraging crime is not honorable at all.

Sure americans access this site, thats fine. There is no crime in simple accessing the site and reading or posting. That is something guaranteed to you by the US constitution and also the Canadian Charter. It is only putting the information contained here to actual practical use where you run into problems. But you can't access this site and then tell me you did not know that what you were doing was considered a crime. with Hackhu, that was entirely possible as he made absolutely no distinction between people doing this in Canada and people doing it in the USA. Not only that, he also did not see promoting illegal piracy in the USA as a problem as he thought is was a crime that you had little chance of getting caught. That just does not cut it anymore, not is it acceptable.

This site cannot legally or morally promote piracy in counties where it is illegal. In Canada, it is a totally different story than it is in the USA.

Hackhu's problems was not simply that he resided in the USA, but that he promoted illegal signal theft there also. That is dumb and will get you nailed time and time again.


[Edited by RiseStar on July 29th, 2001 at 12:42 AM]

[Justin]

Long before HackHU was Satellite Watch News headed by Dan Morgan based in Michigan. Basically it was a paper based version of what HackHU was doing. Information and advertising. DTV's lawyers ran him into the ground.

HackHU can do what he wants but I have a problem with someone based in the US running a server whose logs (alomg with a lot of their users personal info) can be used in court procedings.

[Just The Facts]

Risestar

I disagree with you to some extent.

A citizen has a RESPONSIBILITY to disobey laws that by their nature are oppressive or deny the rights of the Individual.

Having said that I don't mean you Pirate and hide in the shadows.

If CAFFII were an American Organisation I would start by hounding my congressman to death and the DOC. The Presidents staff would get so many Letters they would know us by name.

After a determined effort and their refusal to act on the abuse of American's Rights I would order all the movie services all the sports services and every other monthly service and ask one of the experts to help me get a piece of software that did not open the PPV or anything else but DID OPEN ALL NETWORK FEEDS.

We would then encourage every American to use the software as a form of civil protest. When Direct came after us we would take it all the way to the Supreme court. Your refusal to open the PPV and your payment of all other subscriptions would clearly focus the courts attention on the real issue FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AND IDEAS.

This in my mind would be a true act of civil protest that the Broadcasters in America would have a very hard time fighting.

To CAFFII this is not just a fight for Canadians it is a fight for all peoples of the world. We here in Canada are great full that are Parliament had the wisdom to pass the legislation the way they did. Canadians have been left in a superb position to pick up the banner of freedom of Information and take this fight for peoples rights to the Supreme Court of Canada and beyond to the World Court. CAFFII will assist any American Individual or Organisation in any way we can.

We at CAFFII will not give up even if we lose in the Canadian Supreme court. We have already been in touch with the World Court in the Hague and the UNHCHR(United Nations High Commision on Human Rights) in Geneva Switzerland and the WIPO(world Intellectual Property Organisation)We have even contacted the American civil Liberties Association,. The truth of the matter is that American law does(and Canadian law if we lose)violate the Covenant of Civil and Political Freedoms which America has signed and promotes in other countries continuously. It also violates its own Law regarding Freedom of the Press.

So I say to our American Brothers who will step up to the Plate and fight to change American Law to respect the Individuals rights as guaranteed by your highest law and your International Treaties. Whoever takes up this battle be prepared to face rampant criticism from those you seek to help, a lack of over all support, and the deaf ear of the Politicians who are only interested in listening if you have enough money for them. You will also have another problem your judges are elected so you will have to fight the lobby and money of the Broadcasters on the Judicial front as well.

yea711 you are right this is also about greed. Piracy on C-band disappeared when they made the purchase of the programming a realistic option. The truth is people are more than willing to pay they are not willing to be denied access or to be gouged. The sooner the Studios and the other various players involved realise that, the soon the will get control of piracy in the US.

Of course DTV has to want signal integrity not just give it lip service. Even I could kill the boot straps they just don't want to they could have killed them months ago. They like the big press releases "every pirate card killed" ya killed for one week. In my opnion Direct's signal integrity department is a PR department there to deceive the Studios and Broadcaster in to thinking Direct wants to end Piracy. What they really want in my opinion is to use the easily defeated status of their system to out sell Charlie on the hardware front so that more Americans buy their hardware than Charlie's.


Once saturation of the market placed is reached they will turn up the heat and throw the switch and be sure that they have the larger share of the Market.

As for hack HU being in a war zone that is simply not true. In CAFFII eyes he cared nothing about the cause he continually delete our e-mail address and our post trying to raise funds for the cause. We left in protest of his censorship

In Fact CAFFII had given up on the site as they obviously only cared about advertising for the dealers they were connected to financially.

Just The Facts
http://www.caffii.net[Edited by Just The Facts on July 29th, 2001 at 09:10 AM]

[gunsmoke2]

QUOTE:

The only reason that this site is above ground is because it is in Canada beyond the reach of Dave...Risestar has done a great job by being a visible presence in the fight for Canadians rights which will help all of us in the future.
Hack-Hu resides in the US and that is why he's going away. I have to admit that I admired the fact that he was "in" the war zone and was carrying on the fight well within the reach of DTV and lasted as long as he did...I would think that Canadian sites would highly encourage this because someday, inevitably, DTV will be in Canada and then the Pirates Den will be fighting for its mere existance just like Hack-Hu is now...


Both DTV and NDS have addressed this site except the current state of the law favors PD and other sites. We have a desire to keep it that way and is very much part of our Challenge at the upcoming Supreme Court hearing.

I personally canot admire anyone in any country that carries an illegal fight and I certaintly would never encourage it..I see that as a very big mistake.

I have no idea why you think DTV will be in Canada as they with Power/Direct were already in Canada. They applied for a license from the CRTC and received it..then they abanded it.. I don't see DTV in Canada anymore than they are now. PD is fighting for its existance but has nothing to do with DTV but rather the Canadian Government along with Canadian Monopolies such as Bell ExpressPuke.


GS2

[Just The Facts]

Hello GS2

Once again I will say Sometimes it is the only avenue left.

When those in Power refuse to uphold the highest Law of the land and fill their pockets with the results of their disgrace, and use the Authority and Prestige of Law enforcement offices to back their treasonous activities non violent civil disobedience is all a Citizen has left. It is in fact their CIVIC DUTY. Yes you read right, I did say treasonous as in my opinion if you knowingly try to undermined the highest Law in The Land and betray the Peoples trust it is in fact treasonous. Harsh words I know but look it up in Webster's you will find that I have not used the word out of context.

Treason: "a betrayal of trust or confidence, a breach of faith"

I would say that fits the Liberal Governments actions here perfectly.

The examples of great men and Women throughout History that have taken such actions are too many to list and may I add I wish thank every single one of them for their Sacrifices. It is because of their sacrifices we enjoy the Freedoms we have today.


Just The Facts
http://www.caffii.net[Edited by Just The Facts on July 29th, 2001 at 04:19 PM]

[gunsmoke2]

Good Post!

Hi Justin,

Actually DTV hit both SWN and North Star Gazer at the same time..both as you say are examples of mags advertizng hacks when internet was not around.

I spoke to Dan and Barb ( North Star ) when they were presented with their lawsuits. Barb understood that fighting it would leave her broke but Dan thought his fist admendam rights were being violated so he carried on.

He asked the industry for financial support on his case but no one supported him much including his fellow Americans.. he is broke now.

Why would any not support US first admemdam rights ? especially US citizens as I understand this very a very important issue just as the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms is.

If any fellow Americans can launch a viable challenge then I would be more than happy to support it as will many other Canadians.

I hope they move in that direction.

GS2